oxygenated water and juicing for low oxygen levels, PEM etc.

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Catseye, Feb 18, 2008.

  1. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    I've been drinking lots of oxygenated water and green juices for about a week and can't believe how good I feel. I guess the red blood cells sticking together and preventing a proper distribution of oxygen was a huge part of the lack of energy along with PEM (post exertional malaise) and exercise intolerance. When I get PEM or after some light exercises, I feel low on oxygen - it seems to be centered in my chest. Or, at least, that's how I felt before this water. I still can't dance, but I'm able to do much more during the day than I was able to do even a week ago. I really lucked out having a friend with an oxygenated water machine.

    I asked Harry some more details about how the machine works today, and in his broken English, he told me that the machine puts the oxygen through the water at a really high speed (and this technique is what is patented) and it opens up the molecules (I think he means the cluster of molecules) and then they close back around the oxygen, keeping it in the water. He says it lasts about a week or so. You have to store it in glass or the oxygen will leak through plastic.

    He said water in nature, meaning freshly dripping glacier water that has not been sitting around for awhile, will have maybe 40 mg of oxygen per liter and the water he's making here has 20-25mg per liter. The scientists that did the testing said the regular water has between .4 and .8 mg per liter. Twenty mg per liter is the maximum he can put in it because of the tropical temperatures here in the Dominican Republic. He says they can make it in colder temperatures to have like 60-80 mg per liter. His water company he used to have in Austria made a product called Vitalis, but after some disagreements, the company was disbanded. There are a few machines around that make it and athletes use it because it's like legal doping.

    I've seen the machine, it has a couple of filters (one is ultraviolet with a light), a bunch of tubes, a couple of canisters and an oxygen tank hooked up to it. It pumps out the water pretty slowly. They sell their all day Ramilife package in hotels (kind of like an all day yoga, acupressure, qi gong, edukinesthetic and massage), and this water is provided to the people attending. Since it's a business, they have to have liability insurance and testing on everything. They have a guy that comes once a month to test the water. It's a really big deal, he takes a sample on ice with him and they get a formal report a few days later. The guy said it's the cleanest water he's ever tested in this country and he started drinking it.

    I also asked if it's possible to drink too much oxygenated water and they have been told by doctors that it isn't. My friend that owns the machine says he has been drinking about 5-6 liters every day for 10 years.

    I really don't know much about the science of water, it's new to me, but what I do know is I looked at my red blood cells before and after drinking this oxygenated water and they were significantly "unstuck" from drinking it.

    That was on an empty stomach, which is supposed to make a difference in live blood analysis, from what I've read. I pricked my finger, put the blood on a slide and looked at it with a microscope. The red blood cells were stuck together on their flat sides and that will obviously cut down on surface area available to absorb and transport oxygen. I drank some of the oxygenated water and looked at fresh blood after 30 minutes. Three of us looked and agreed there was a significant difference in how much the cells were stuck together. Instead of them all being stuck to each other, there were groups of cells for a change. Many of the bonds had been broken and there was much more surface area for oxygen to be absorbed and transported.

    hurtstomove and I had already determined we both had red blood cell clumping and decided that enzymes would solve the problem, but they will probably take longer than this water. Just to make sure it's a lasting thing, I'm going to purchase a digital pc microscope and keep an eye on things.

    This blood/water test is evidence to me this water has an effect on hypercoagulation. Certainly better than any double blind study, because I could see it firsthand. And I could feel it. When I drink this water, the feeling like I'm not getting enough air is not there. I usually get that feeling from being too active or exercising. I don't know for sure that oxygenated water is getting more oxygen into my system than it would normally be able to get from breathing (that should depend on how saturated my hemoglobin is, or however that works), but it is at least somehow able to break the sticky bonds of my blood cells that are responsible for the lack of oxygen transport in my body. Either way, I'm getting air!

    I've read through some "quackwatch" type of sites explaining how oxygenated water has no benefit. And they mostly insult and demand science without offering much themselves. It doesn't really offer any insight as to whether oxygenated water has any merit or not. But they don't have a low oxygen problem and have drank some and noticed they had more air in less than 30 minutes, either. They seem to offer all these logical assumptions as to why stuff can't work without really testing it or even trying it themselves. Sure, there's crap out there, but EVERYTHING isn't crap. They're so scared of even one conman making money off people that they're willing to just poo on everything that doesn't have adequate scientific testing. And natural substances without patents are not going to be tested like we want them to be. I've already explained the "why" of that in depth in other posts.

    I'm sure there are as many "snake waters" as there are real oxygenated waters and I would have no way of knowing which is which. What's more, the only reason I even tried this stuff is because I happen to know someone who makes it and was heavily involved in the manufacture and patenting of his machine. Plus I saw that video of the Vitalizer claiming how it could unstick red blood cells. Otherwise, I never would have thought to mess with oxygenated water. Like some other stuff I've tried and found it worked, it just plain sounds too kooky or it just doesn't sound helpful enough to catch my attention.

    Also, I have been to several of the all day Ramilife sessions last year where I drank maybe 1/2 liter - 1 liter per day. I didn't notice much from it and I figured it was because I had too much wrong with me. But I just saw on another oxygenated water site that you can't mix fizzy water or vitamin C with the oxygenated water because you will "degas" it by like 90%, and I was putting a packet of my electrolyte solution in it every time. See what happens when you mess with things you don't know enough about? If I had looked into it back then, I probably could have saved myself a lot of grief. But shoulda, woulda, coulda is the story of our lives. The water site I saw that said this is oxygizer.com if anyone's curious.

    I did my own blood test under the microscope before I had drank much green juices, so I know that the water had a definite effect and it wasn't just from the juicing. But I can't tell how much effect is attributable to the water and how much is attributable to the green juices after a week of both. I'm going to continue both, as I think they are both doing great things. But like everything else I've posted about that I think is great, if you have too many things wrong with you, just doing a couple of things or even a few may not be enough. I take 30-40 different things every day. That's how I'm getting better.

    How do you decide to take 30-40 different things? This is what I did: I started with lists of supplements that doctors recommend for CFS and what I saw other board members recommend, and then I researched them and tried to decide by my symptoms what problems I had and which supplements addressed those problems. Then I start taking them all. This was a real shotgun approach and I did my homework thoroughly, and it worked. These are the problems I eventually realized I had:

    adrenal fatigue, liver congestion, leaky gut syndrome, mitochondrial malfunction, multiple metabolite vitamin and mineral deficiencies, hormone imbalances, hypothalamic malfunction

    These are hard to treat because for one thing, the medical profession doesn't even recognize the first 3 ailments because they are mostly treatable with natural substances and they have no adequate tests for hypothalamic and mitochondrial malfunction.

    If you want to try some oxygenated water, make sure it has at least 20-25 mg of oxygen in it or more because I know that amount works. Maybe ask at your local health food store if they know of any good suppliers of it or if they have some. Make sure it's in glass bottles, or if they fill bottles for you they will only put it in glass, and make sure it isn't carbonated. And if you want to do juicing, make sure you get a masticating juicer that puts out just juice without any pulp. Lots of people have posted about juicing. Personally, after everything I've read, I think it would be a great remedy for cancer, as well as CFS and Fibro. PH has a good juicer in their store at a reasonable price. It's expensive, yes, but good juicers like this can cost $400, easy, and theirs is half that.

    I had mentioned about a product called the Vitalizer before. I still haven't gotten the sample from my friend, but since it's very expensive, like $400, I'll just be getting the water from my friend at $1 per liter. Plus their water they say has 9 mg per liter of oxygen. You can probably purchase oxygenated water with a higher content than 9mg, that's what I would do. If anyone knows where to buy it and how much it costs, please post it. Remember, it has to come in a glass bottle and can't be carbonated - very important! Then you know it's the real thing.

    good luck


    [This Message was Edited on 02/18/2008]
    [This Message was Edited on 02/18/2008]
  2. mulder2000

    mulder2000 New Member

    What do you think about this one? This one came up as most popular on a web search and seems widely available.


    From their website:

    General Information

    We start with an excellent quality natural spring water from Adobe Springs, located on the eastern slope of Mount Hamilton in Northern California. Adobe Springs water is rich in magnesium, beneficial for cardiovascular health and your health in general. The pH is slightly alkaline, at 8.4. Then we add pure oxygen, approximately 60 mg/l, or 10 times the amount in typical water. To keep this oxygen in the bottle, we only use glass bottles. You can see small bubbles form in the bottle after it is opened, especially if you shake the bottle gently.

    With other oxygenated beverages you will see very few bubbles. Others bottle their oxygenated water in plastic and the oxygen leaks out through the plastic.

    We do not know all of the benefits of drinking hiOsilver Oxygen Water. Many people report that they feel energized after a bottle. Studies have been done showing enhanced sports performance for athletes drinking oxygenated water. With hiOsilver, many people report that their headaches disappear, even migraine headaches.

    Oxygen inhibits the bad (anaerobic) bacteria in your mouth. Anaerobic bacteria in your mouth are responsible for bad breath, tooth decay, and gum disease. U.S. Patent 5,747,079

    One bottle of hiOsilver Oxygen Water and you will see why we are proud of the many benefits it offers over ordinary bottled waters . . .
    bullet TurbOcharged with Pure Oxygen
    bullet Improved Sports Performance
    bullet Extra Energy
    bullet High in Magnesium - for cardiovascular health
    bullet No Sodium & No Calories
    bullet Alkaline pH of 8.4
    bullet Truly Refreshing
    bullet Probiotic - promotes the good (aerobic) bacteria in your mouth
  3. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    It seems to fit the bill, glass bottles, no carbonation, 60 mg. The stuff must be more common than I thought. I didn't even really look for some, since I have my own supplier. How much is it?

    I forgot to post the story Guenther told me today of some guy at Ramilife one day who wanted to break the record of drinking the most oxygenated water, which was 9 liters. He had drank about 6 liters in the morning, ate lunch, and then started in on the after lunch exercises. It's usually a while after lunch, since people sit around and talk for awhile, it's not right after.

    So he was really into the exercises and Guenther saw him look like he was going to throw up and he ran downstairs and tossed his cookies in the grass. His wife stopped, concerned, and started to go down, but he came back up and she asked him if he was okay and he said he felt really great and went back to exercising!

    I don't know that I'd go for 9 liters in a day, but it's nice to know that maybe the worst that could happen is a cookie toss if you jump around on a stomach full of oxygenated water and some food.

  4. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    Do you know if this is about the same as the water and reasoning stated on Sang Whang's site. He seems to explain oxygenated water and the reason behind the health benefits of it. Although I don't completely grasp the meaning because of the jargon that sometimes goes over my head. But if I've understood correctly even adding a little bicarbonate of soda to water helps provide oxygen. Is this correct? And my neighbor was telling me something about a product called Dija Rock. Have you ever heard of it? It supposedly helps to provide oxygen to the blood.
  5. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    Yeah, pretty much the same kind of thing happening - an increase in oxygen to the body.

    Lactic acid (byproduct of energy production) is buffered by sodium bicarbonate in the blood. And as you know, our bodies produce sodium bicarbonate for this purpose. And acidic water holds much less oxygen than alkaline water. That means the cells are much better off being alkaline that acidic so they can hold more oxygen. So what happens is the baking soda will alkalize you and you will have more oxygen available to cells from being alkaline. And oxygenated water is supposed to be more alkaline. I guess it would have to be so it could hold the oxygen.

    I've never heard of dija rock before.

  6. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    I guess there's really no way to know how the water is making me feel better. I'm sure it's because it's unclumping red blood cells since I saw that, but I don't know how it's doing it. It's alkaline, and that's supposed to be part of it. But I had been drinking tons of water and taking lots of minerals and eating veggies (all alkalizing things) and still had problems before. And it doesn't contain more oxygen than you would get from air. It must be the combination of being alkaline and having oxygen.



    "Effective function of the red blood cell depends on: [a] its strongly negative surface charge (derived from surface glycoproteins) which permits it to repulse other circulating cells, thereby preventing 'clumping';"

    Incidentally, heparin is a polysaccharide with negative charges, just FYI I thought was interesting. (ttb.eng.wayne.edu)



    "Unfortunately, acid interferes with this very important mechanism in a pretty frightening way. Acid actually strips away the negative charge from red blood cells. The result is that your red blood cells then tend to clump together and not flow as easily. This makes it much more difficult for them to flow easily through the bloodstream. But it also makes it harder for them to move freely through those small capillaries. This means less oxygen gets to your cells. Acid also weakens the red blood cells and they begin to die. And guess what they release into your system when they die? More acid. I could describe a whole list of processes that occur when your system becomes and remains acid but I think you get the idea.

    The point is that aside from the acid that is secreted into your stomach to aid digestion, acid in your body is bad. In regard to producing energy in the body, here's an easy question for you. What do you think happens to a person's energy level if over time their system becomes more and more acid, their biochemical balance is disrupted and their red blood cells can't deliver oxygen and nutrients as efficiently to all their cells? The answer is simple. Their energy level drops. Dramatically. Are you beginning to get the picture here as to the importance of pH in your body? Good. Now let's take a quick look at what causes acidity in your body and then look at steps you can take to get your body pH back to an ideal level. What exactly causes acid in the body? The primary cause of an acidic condition in your body is from what you put in your mouth.

    In other words, what you eat and what you drink. And it isn't how "acid" something may seem when you eat or drink it. It has to do with what is left over when you digest it. Specifically, does eating or drinking something leave behind an acid or alkaline "ash". For example, I don't know about you but I love seafood. Scallops are one of my favorites. However, when your body digests scallops, it leaves an extremely acid ash. In fact, scallops are one of the most acid foods you can eat. Unfortunately, a lot of the things most people put in their mouths create an acid ash. These include alcohol, coffee and a lot of flesh protein in your diet. Interestingly enough, stress also tends to create an acid condition in the body. So how do we increase our ph levels?

    Fortunately, it is pretty easy to immediately change your pH for the better and make it more alkaline. The first step is to understand which of the foods you are eating and the drinks you are drinking are acid and which are alkaline. Then it's simply a matter of eliminating some of the more acid foods you are eating and adding in more alkaline foods."

    I just put that up to show yet another reason why alkalizing is so important.

    I've seen on a couple of sites that athletes tested didn't have different effects pertaining to exercise before and after drinking oxygenated water but I've also read and know firsthand that many athletes, including Olympic athletes, use it. I can really only say that if you have that oxygen starved feeling which is most likely due to clumping red blood cells, this water should help you like it did me. It's another big milestone in my recovery. Who would have guessed - just water? I'm still amazed. I think I'm done trying to figure out why it works. I really don't care at this point.

    And don't forget about green juicing. Start off small and then chug it.

  7. pumpkinpatch

    pumpkinpatch New Member

    I've been drinking the Green Smoothie's for 1 month now and tomorrow I'm going for live blood cell test. I will ask her to point out any clumping red blood cells. Thank you so much for your insight and I'm glad you had a light bulb moment with the water and greens. I've said all along I think my pain problem stem from low oxygen, low circulation. Can't wait to see if she sees any improvement with my blood.

  8. Waynesrhythm

    Waynesrhythm Member

    Hi Karen,

    Well, normally I operate in the slow, slow lane, but recently I've been more in the slow, slow, slow, slow lane. But I finally did get around to your thread here on drinking oxygenated water.

    I was wondering if you have ever experimented with supplemental oxygen, either with an oxygen concentrator or regular canister-type setup. If so, I was wondering how your experiences with it compared to drinking the oxygenated water.

    I got a prescription from my doctor almost a year ago for an oxygen concentrator but haven't felt able to comfortably afford the $700-$1000 price tag on it. Lots of money when you don't know whether something will make a big difference or not.

    Also, I've noticed a quite a bit on pH stuff on the board here lately. I have not researched much recently, but my take has been that a lot of people with ME/CFS actually are too alkaline. An analysis from a naturopath I had done at one time came back that I was too alkaline and listed the many symptoms of being alkalkine. A lot fit the symptoms of ME/CFS.

    I also seem to remember reading that different foods can have a much different reaction in the bodies of people who consume them. In other words, two different people eating the exact same food can experience either an acidic or alkalizing effect. Have you ever heard of this? I seem to remember reading that we know way less about all the variables associated with acid/alkaline balance than what we actually do know.

    You've probably read a lot more on this recently as I've not had the energy to do much research. Would be interested in any insights you may have developed on either the various supplemental oxygenation venues or the whole pH conundrum.

    Thanks for all your posts and information. :)

    Regards, Wayne
    [This Message was Edited on 02/22/2008]
  9. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    Does the clumping together of red blood cells cause anemia or is it a form of anemia?
  10. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    The ph thing is confusing. From what I can tell, there's different ph's in the body all over. Guts have one, stomach has another, blood yet another, cells, etc. I pretty much believed the premise that veggies and minerals were alkalizing and proteins were acidifying. I did overalkalize one time and felt a "buzzing" all over my body, and confusion like I had never felt before. I'm sure I was acid most of the time and not alkaline. I drank tons of water, ate lots of veggies, took lots of mineral supps and would still be acid. Acid also explains the red blood cells (RBCs) sticking together and I know I had this for a very long time - even saw with my own eyes.

    I think that trying to change our ph's all over is way too complicated and is just like a medical profession treatment: it is a bandaid. We have to figure out what's causing the ph problem in the first place. And I'm thinking all my problems now are centered in my gut and liver. And they are reversible with proper testing and guidance.

    The gut is most of the immune system, it affects nutrient absorption and has a direct influence on how the liver functions. Some people think that Alka Seltzer (I can't believe I ate the whole thing!) is the extent of help the gut needs. It is an extremely complex system and I believe it's not easily treated by yourself unless you get very lucky AND it isn't too bad off in the first place. I thought I was okay with my glutamine, probiotics, digestive enzymes, raw garlic and good diet. WRONG!!!

    This is only maintenance type stuff AFTER you've repaired the gut lining, balanced the gut flora, gotten rid of all parasites, and restored function to the pancreas and gallbladder. This is a major undertaking and now I believe I was foolish to not engage an expert when I first suspected problems. But I had serious brain fog, too, so I guess I can't beat myself up too badly over it. I just won't make the same mistake again and hopefully, people reading this will open their eyes to it and not make it, either.

    I had read Cheney's article about oxygen and acidosis and I even got an oxygen tank once and a rebreather mask. Here's the article, he talks about acidosis:


    It didn't really help, not at all like I thought it would. I mean, I was low on oxygen, I knew because I could feel it, and here I was breathing pure oxygen and still feeling starved. This was long before I knew about the RBC clumping. I wouldn't waste the money on the oxygen stuff. And I think the oxygenated water unclumping the red blood cells is probably something along the lines of restoring the negative charge to the RBCs so they repel each other and don't stick together. It's funny, this water increases our oxygen transport not because it's got oxygen in it, but because it unsticks our oxygen transporters: RBCs.

    I have no way of finding this out about restoring the negative charge, I'm still looking into it, but it's the only way I can figure that this water can unclump them so fast. Oxygenated water is going to be cheaper than getting the oxygen. And the pure oxygen isn't going to help if the RBCs are all stuck together anyway. The surface area of the RBCs is just drastically reduced when they're stuck together on their biconcave sides. Plus, they won't be able to flow freely down the smallest capillaries where there is only room for one RBC at a time to move through.

    We are getting more oxygen out of the oxygenated water but the dramatic effect for me I think is because it is unsticking the RBCs which is allowing more oxygen to be absorbed and delivered. It literally gave me results in minutes and so this should be tried first. You can buy just one liter of the water and if you're having some PEM or just all around "roughness" with that oxygen starved feeling, you won't have to wait long to know if it's going to work. I know it does this fast because of looking at my own blood and seeing it start to get unstuck inside of 30 minutes. So if you're having a low oxygen problem, I don't see how this couldn't help.

    I wouldn't be surprised if some foods can alkaline some and acidify another. I know some of it depends on stomach acid and we all aren't putting out the same amount of that. That will figure into how badly a protein food is going to acidify you. I read that acid blood will hold less oxygen and that makes sense if it's because of the RBCs sticking together.

    Have you looked into your guts? I mean done some heavy duty testing like gut permeability, stool analysis, what kind of bacteria, yeast, parasites are living there, all that stuff? This is what I'm finally doing now and should have done months ago. You need someone familiar with these type of tests and who has a specific plan of attack for the outcome of each test. Do you have someone like that available?
    Want to meet in chat tonight?

  11. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    Anemia technically means less hemoglobin or less RBCs. But with anemia or clumping RBCs, the effects are the same: less oxygen and nutrient transport and you feel like death warmed over. This is probably yet another cfs symptom that throws doctors. You feel weak and oxygen starved so they look for anemia, but it isn't there. And they don't think to look for rouleaux formation (clumping RBCs). In their ignorance, they say you are imagining it. At least, that's what I was told.

    How the heck can you imagine being starved for oxygen, anyway? I think I would imagine something else if I was going to imagine stuff. Some morons just don't like to listen.

  12. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    I'd be very interested to learn what/if the long term use of phenytoin, and any other drugs that contain phen, has on RBCs. I now know that anything that has phen in the name affects me and not in a good way.
  13. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    I've been taking dilantin (phenytoin) for almost 20 years. I know long term use is supposed to cause liver damage, as if I don't have enough problems with my liver already, and it depletes a few key nutrients like biotin and I think folic acid, can't remember. I'm taking them all anyway, so I no longer remember what they are. But if you search "dilantin depletes nutrients" they should come up.

    I think most of us already have our livers on crutches. Sure would be nice to know if I had a blood clumping problem before CFS. I wish everyone here would take a look at their own, that would be an interesting poll.

  14. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    This is the message I'm trying to relay to you. It's not about liver, gut issues, or nutrient deficiencies. It's about phenols and sulfur: Phenol sulfur-transferase. It turned out that the thing about my using baking soda wasn't about acidity or yeast. It helped to eliminate phenols from my body
    [This Message was Edited on 02/22/2008]
  15. jmq

    jmq New Member

    You have me thinking about a symptom that I had for years before and during the start of my FM . My fingers, espcially between the fingers, sometimes my wrists, and neck would get black. Not from rings or jewelry..just with or without jewelry on. It would be worse on days I was stressed or in hyper mode. I always thought I had too much acid or PH imbalances but drs. just gave me a strange look when I asked about it. Now that I stopped working, it has not happened. I keep thinking that is a clue.

    I will be searching for that water!

  16. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    jmq, that is strange! Do you mean black like a bruise? Can you describe it more?

  17. jmq

    jmq New Member

    Nope, not a bruise. It is just this black stuff like people can get if they wear jewelry that is not gold or a low quality...but I get it without the jewelry..and my wedding ring is 18kt. gold.

    It is like the black stuff you get from changing the ink in a office printer or fax machine if you know what I mean? Its something I can wipe off with a tissue. If I wash it off in a sink, you can see it in the water. It is definitely something that comes out from my skin. I have only seen it on my fingers, wrist, and neck area...never my ears, face or other areas. Strange isnt it!

    Maybe I will post this and see if others have had it>

  18. pumpkinpatch

    pumpkinpatch New Member

    Karen goes to great lengths to write about what's is helping her. Responding with BOLD 100% scam fraud and a few links to where-ever is petty.
  19. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    You guys obviously just aren't paying attention and reading everything. Yes, we know there isn't enough oxygen in the water to let's say, give you enough to save you if you are under water. It doesn't give you more oxygen - I've already said that. What it does is increase the oxygen transport in your body by making the red blood cells able to move more freely. Go ahead and see if you can find an article scientifically proving that this cannot be true.

    That's just from my own observations, not from anyone explaining that to me. And my 2 friends who witnessed the change in my blood cells with me had no idea what oxygenated water was or what was going to happen. The effect was very noticeable and they noticed it. If you don't believe them or me, and think I have some hidden weirdo agenda behind all this, then don't try it!

    You, and others like you, seem to go to great lengths trying to convince people that certain things can't possibly work rather than just trying it yourselves. I guess you just haven't paid enough attention to this board. Alternative methods are working. How much have you two improved with what you're doing? As much as me? I doubt it. I've gone from totally bedridden and incapacitated to functional using alternative methods. I suppose you must think this is sheer coincidence and "placebo" effect.

    You can say you haven't been shown scientific evidence they work but I don't know why you would have more faith in a biased, money making, double blind study and no faith at all in the testimonials of your fellow "sufferees". Especially intelligent, well-spoken ones who do their homework and try little experiments to try and figure out what's happening.

    Sure, there is crap water, too, but I've already explained a couple of things you can do to avoid it: make sure it comes in glass and that it isn't carbonated. And there are plenty of athletes using this, ones my friend knows personally in Europe. Harry used to be a professional bodybuilder. And I've gotten a lot of good energy and health tips from bodybuilders.

    best wishes

    [This Message was Edited on 02/24/2008]
    [This Message was Edited on 02/24/2008]
    [This Message was Edited on 03/05/2008]
  20. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    Thanks to you, Rich Van K, Dannybex,Dr. Simoncini, and possibly a few others, I've figured out a huge part as to the cause of my health problems. And it wasn't because any of you said to do this or that. And it wasn't because any of you said to take this or that. Although there were a few suggestions which I thoroughly researched.I now know that the biggest problem I have may be due to phenols. And any acidity problems I have are probably due to phenolic acid. The more phenolic acid I have in my blood, the worse I am healthwise. A couple of months ago I started looking up the generic names of the meds (both prescription and over the counter) many members of this board use. I then look up the systematic name. And I go back even further for some. Turns out that 99 out of 100 times, phenols or some type of derivative of phenols are involved. Just to make sure I wasn't wrong I experimented on myself last nite. I tooka menthol (phenol) cough drop. Five minutes later I had a headache in my right temple and got some nasal congestion. I took Mucinex (phenol) before I went to bed to help with chest congestion. I woke up with some slight ear pain and discomfort on the right side of my head. I also had the feeling that the muscle in the very top of my right arm was shredding just a bit. If I had listened to the medical establishment: 1. They wouldn't have considered phenols. 2. They would have drained my wallet by ordering expensive tests to rule out everything except the effects phenols have on me. 3. They would have prescribed drugs that contained phenols or involved phenols.
    [This Message was Edited on 02/24/2008]