Paranoia Schizaphrenia/Delusions associated with FM/CFS

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by tatwigg, Nov 6, 2002.

  1. tatwigg

    tatwigg New Member

    This is a question for the pros. Has there been any paranoia and delusions associated with FM/CFS or the lack of REM sleep? I have a brother that is very delusional and wonder what medicine that may help him. He does not want to go to any "quackologists" (psycologist/psychriatrist) because he believes that his health problems are lack of REM sleep and does not believe he is delusional. I also believe that most mental problems are caused by nerves keeping people from getting the REM sleep. My brother has CFS really bad and has been seeing a doctor for that and taking the medications for FM/CFS such as neurontin, zoloft, tranxene, etc. He is changing doctors for FM soon and I will talk to her personally about the delusional symtoms and see if she can treat for that also.

    If there is anyone out there that can help my brother I would appreciate it. FM/CFS runs in our family, sister, me, cousin, aunt and possibly other family members.

    Thanks, TATWIGG
  2. tatwigg

    tatwigg New Member

    This is a question for the pros. Has there been any paranoia and delusions associated with FM/CFS or the lack of REM sleep? I have a brother that is very delusional and wonder what medicine that may help him. He does not want to go to any "quackologists" (psycologist/psychriatrist) because he believes that his health problems are lack of REM sleep and does not believe he is delusional. I also believe that most mental problems are caused by nerves keeping people from getting the REM sleep. My brother has CFS really bad and has been seeing a doctor for that and taking the medications for FM/CFS such as neurontin, zoloft, tranxene, etc. He is changing doctors for FM soon and I will talk to her personally about the delusional symtoms and see if she can treat for that also.

    If there is anyone out there that can help my brother I would appreciate it. FM/CFS runs in our family, sister, me, cousin, aunt and possibly other family members.

    Thanks, TATWIGG
  3. JaciBart

    JaciBart Member

    to a slight degree, I wasn't gonna tell anyone though!

    Now the cat is out of the bag.

    Schitzophrenia runs in my family. I do watch closely for those strange thoughts.

    I am going to address that to my Dr next wk when I see him, he will have the results on my eeg by then and that will show I think as well as seizures, strokes, etc.

    Jaci
  4. poodlegirl

    poodlegirl New Member

    You need to tell your brother there is no harm in seeing a doctor for mental health. Him not wanting to admit there is something wrong is called "denial". Many normal people go to psychiatrists. There is no shame in seeking help. The shame comes when you don't seek help and let yourself get worse and worse. Encourage your brother to go. Mental health docs are more knowledgeable in anti-depressants and other meds.
  5. Milo83

    Milo83 New Member

    Sorry, but I have to agree with poodlegirl 100% here..There is always that slight possiblity the medication he is taking for his FM/CFS could make his paranoia worse..He really should get to a dr..Even our drs. and nurses in todays society seek the help of physicatrists..
    Best Of Luck to your brother......Take Care....Donna
  6. tatwigg

    tatwigg New Member

    Thanks for all your replies, however, sometime ago, I had a discussion either here or elsewhere about the lack of REM sleep and what it can do to you. I know a very experienced nurse, and she told me that lack of REM or lack of sleep can affect the central nurvous system, cause depression and schizaphrenia. I asked the forum or chat, if this was possible and that phychiatrists seem like they need to get it together and heed what is being revelled on the FM/CFS as far as the sleep disorders and the symtoms sleep disorders can cause.

    I got a wide possitive response from them, and even a doctor told me that psycology is 30 years behind even though they don't go by some of the older theories that have been documented. This doctor highly agreed with me.

    My brother has had a hard time with all the phsycology end of things and has been treated very bad, and has turned away from phsycology. He will not see a phsycologist even if I did encourage him. He has his own mind and facts, as an experienced phsycologist should know that their delusional problems cannot be addressed without medication, and therefore, their minds cannot be changed very easy!

    I was sent to see a rhumetologist who did not treat me very well and misdocumented some statements in my records. He advised me to go to a phsycologist to learn how to cope with stress. So I went. The phsycologist started diagnosing me with other disorders, which have there own phsyco names, that coincided with FM and CFS. I am ADHD - of coarse I am. If you don't get good sleep all your life, your attention span is going to be down the tubes. You tend to day dream alot. Then the next thing he felt I had was some mood disorder, which I forget the name. FM is known for it's moodiness. I was having marriage problems (who doesn't with FM and CFS?), and I was depressed and down about my marriage and being able to reason with my husband. So for most of the visits, he had heard alot of negativeness.

    One day when I went in, I was related to him how I felt about myself, very intelligent, learned quickly, people at work would rely on me about the software on the computers, both PC and MAC, and in pass jobs that I had quit because I could handle the stresses going on, my supervisors called me at home and wanted me to come back. One company when I just happened to say I need to save up $1000 for my car yet, to buy it, the company gave me $1000 for my Christmas bonus.

    He started to insinuate delusions and a moodiness, when it was only a change of subject. If you talk about something good, you are going to be in a good spirit, if you talk about something bad in your life, and you are an emotional person, you are going to be upset. Depends on the topic.

    I do have phone #s and people to call who would instantly approve what I have said about myself. Unfortunately, I do not work anymore because I cannot keep figures accurate, or remember to do very detailed jobs very good anymore.

    I disagree with poodlegirl and mylo, but can identify with Jacki and I believe that we have something that the phsycology practice does not want to admit to in fear of their careers. They do not seem to be thinking of the patients and what would them the best health. (All phsycologists, I have been told, are not as hard headed as this, but recognized the possibilities, and what some patients, like myself and Jacki have experience to be to us fact!)

    Thanks anyway, TATWIGG

  7. Annette2

    Annette2 New Member

    Why don't you suggest he visit a Sleep Clinic? They can diagnose him if he has a sleep disorder and help him to treat it. Good luck!

    Annette2
  8. tatwigg

    tatwigg New Member

    Thanks Annette,

    I believe that the new doctor that he goes to will do a study on him. She is very, very, very good and highly recommended. She will seek phsycological advise from a professional if necessary also, and treat him with the proper medications without him knowing.

    TATWIGG

  9. AnnetteP

    AnnetteP New Member

    I had this discussion with my dr. since I have a brother who is disabled, being diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic about 30 years ago.

    For awhile my parents took him to an osteopath who changed his diet and put him on chelation. There were some noticeable changes, but not enough to bring about any long-term changes.

    After reading a lot on nutrition and pathogens, I found that there have been many cured of this by addressing the underlying issues, instead of taking the pscyho drugs. When I asked my dr. if this was curable, she didn't say yes and she didn't say no. What she did say is that the longer someone has lived this way (I guess she meant the longer they have allowed the disease state to wreak havoc on their systems and/or the longer they took psycho drugs which cause side effects) the longer it takes to reprogram the cells, which get used to behaving in a pattern they are allowed to continue in for so long.

    I am convinced that there is hope for my brother; I see a lot of other things going on in him, besides paranoia and delusions. For instance, he has terrible gastroinestinal problems and weight gain, along with the sleep disorder that you mentioned. While he hasn't had an episode in years, its only because my parents have a paid nurse go to their house and administer his shots. When he starts feeling good, he stops taking his medicine then falls back into his old patterns; the nurse seems to be what's kept him stable for so long. Unfortunately, my parents are in their 70s and have pretty much given up hope on him being cured since they spent so much money, over the years, on cures that proved costly and fruitless.

    I think someone such as my brother has a lot of things that many of us with CFS and/or FM have. So, if I had to find a dr. for my brother, I would use the post I made, entitled, "how to find a CFS/FM dr." Of course I would use my dr. for him, but the kind of dr. I have can be found using the information in that post. (While I think psychiatry is good for dealing with emotional issues, I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with psychiatric disorders, because simply, I believe "mental illness" is really a PHYSICAL ILLNESS.

    I hope your brother finds the help I know is out there,
    Annette
  10. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    before brain damage and FMS from a car accident put me out of the work force.
    I agree with Annette that there is no demarcation line between physical and mental illness and we need to get rid of that outmoded way of thinking.
    Having said that, I was taught that lack of REM sleep is one of the symptoms of schizophrenia, a part of the disorder, not the cause of it. From my research and studies, I think the cause is genetic. If one has a defective gene, no amount of talk therapy is really going to make a difference, and the dismal record of resolution of schizophrenia bears that out.
    I know of no relation between FMS and schizophrenia, but there is a commonality between FMS and Bipolar disorder, which may be the "mood disorder" you mention. They are both serotonin-mediated disorders and tend to run in the same families, along with several other serotonin-mediated disorders like bulimia, alcoholism, migraines, and depression. There are self-tests you can take at various internet sites to see if you may be bipolar, and they are actually pretty good, but we're not allowed to list URL's here, sorry.
    If you want physical treatment for your brother,and that is how I read your post (sorry if I interpreted it wrong), I would recommend trying to find a doctor who specializes in NeuroEndocrinology. They are rare, and most of them are psychiatrists, but they have a biological approach to the problems of the brain.
    Sorry I can't be of more help. I worked with people who had neuroses or personality disorders, and have no experience with psychosis, just "book learning".
    Best of luck to you,
    Klutzo

  11. JaciBart

    JaciBart Member

    My ins co has very little psych bennies, I used them all up early this yr in help dealing with my husband's heart trauma and finally accepting the fact that my nephew Cody that I am raising as my son is ADHD. I have had trouble with him since he started kindergarten, he is very ADHD and I did not want to believe there was such a thing, who would drug a child?

    After I was able to accept it & want help for him my husband & his family & my family all thought I just wanted to drug him so he would shut up. No one w/o raising an ADHD child can relate, lately the last week or so he has been lying, sneaking things, stealing, hiding sweets under his bed ( no idea where he gets them, friends I suspect) and this has been an hourly occurance, I have been in knots over it, turns our he is skipping his meds so now I have to stand over him every morning, he has been a nightmare at school over it also, his teacher has been having a really hard time.

    Anyway, I have no options to get help with psych issues, I am not working & my hubby does not make much, we do good to just get by.

    Jaci
  12. tatwigg

    tatwigg New Member

    Thanks again for the input. The neuroendocrinologist is a good one that I may check into.

    There has been another line of thought along the same lines as Dr. Paul Cheney on whey products. Any kind of cow products. You look in butter or margarine, it has whey in it. Carol Sieverling just put out an article on this website on "Paul Cheney, M.D., on Undenatured Whey for Chronic Fatique Syndrome Patients." I believe that this could be the cause of all of it.

    I was stationed in Iceland years ago when in the service, and there all they had was goat products. This is all that the military base could use to get local fresh dairy. It tasted fine, just like our own products. I have never felt so refreshed when I woke up in the morning and ready to go.

    However, when returning to the US, I started being sluggish in the morning and late to work. I didn't understand this because I was always on time for work in Iceland. As years passed, and I have talked to many people about the milk products here in the US, I have been told that the enzime in milk is very bad and can cause havic in people big time. But who would make milk products in the US illegal to use?

    I am one of those who is supposed to be allergic to milk products, and have difficulty digesting it. I have a theory that those who have problems with digestion of milk products and have allergies to it, may have FM/CFS, schizaphrenia and delusions, nerve problems, and even may be the cause of people who have committed mass murders. I know that this sounds drastic, but I have tried to eliminate milk products in my diet after coming back to the US, and I did feel better. It is very hard to try to stay away from milk products in the US, but it is something to think about even for ADHD and any other disorder.

    TATWIGG
  13. teach6

    teach6 New Member

    I have both CFS and FM and my son has been dx'd with bipolar disorder, which they are now reconsidering because they think he may have schizoafective disorder. Either way, I've seen him psychotic and I attend a support group for family members of mentally ill adults.

    First, most of these patients do not want to see a doc and don't think there is anything wrong with them. They will do anything to keep from taking their meds (this was told to me by a man at my church who has bipolar disorder and is a former counselor). It has also been confirmed in my support group which is led by a therapist.

    My point is, it's going to be difficult to get him to go to any kind of doctor. If he thinks you are trying to trick him, he won't go. If he goes and feels afterward that you tricked him (even if you didn't) he'll be angry and won't trust you.

    It's tough to deal with these mental illnesses. I don't envy you at all. We have been lucky in that my son is now involved in a local day program which lasts a minimum of 12 weeks and after that there will be follow-up. They will help him with housing at a reduced rate also.

    Good luck with your brother. I hope you are able to get him the help he needs.

    Barbara
  14. lease79

    lease79 New Member

    Fibro/CFS come from my Mum's side of the family & mental illness comes from my Dad's (I have nothing to do with this side of the family.)
    Mum is un dx FMS I am pretty sure & her sister is dx CFS.
    Dad is bi-polar, so is at least one of my older half brothers & my sister suffers from depression (she was on Zoloft, but took herself off it.)
    My phsycologist has said that I am not depressed (unless I am in a flare & then it is pain related.)
    But a mental health worker I was seeing DID try to diagnose me with a form of OCD, because I get certain words or phrases stuck in my head that go round & round. Like songs & just certain words. Drives me nute, but I am pretty sure that it is a neuro thing.

    Lease
  15. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    Hi Lease - having songs go round and round in your head is perfectly normal, we all do that sometimes, and it is not nearly enough symptomology to dx you with OCD all by iteslf. Do a websearch on OCD and you will see how far off base that is. If that is your only compulsive symptom, please don't worry about it.

    Hi Reeder - Yes, you are correct, and that is what I meant when I said that the lack of REM sleep is a part of Schizophrenia. The lack of dreaming is thought to result over time in people being in a dreaming state while they are awake. Imagine what that must be like! Dreaming is important to our health, but we still don't really know why!

    Hugs, Klutzo
  16. tatwigg

    tatwigg New Member

    Thanks for the input everyone. Sure seems to confirm my theories. I find it really strange that there are so many families that have FM/CFS running through them, also have schizaphrenia also. Very interesting stuff that all of you have commented on, the REM sleep disorder and the dreaming state while someone is awake, B-12, etc. I have often though that my brother really was believing that his dreams are real, and hearing the dreaming while awake seems to verify my thoughts of what is happening with my brother. He has such a hard time falling to sleep and getting the right kind of sleep that I don't wonder that he is dreaming while awake.

    I also liked the chat on the daughter incidence, where a doctor put her on a medication and it cured her from all the delusions, etc., that she was having.

    TATWIGG