Poll: How many of you were NOT breastfed, when a baby?

Discussion in 'Transfer Factor' started by Plantscaper, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    I was not and have been interested in whether that has led to CFS/FM.. and Since, Transfer Factor is based on getting immunity from first milk (the breast)..Back then, according to my mother, they were encouraging bottle-feeding..

    Have been gone a long while (no internet access), but will be starting on Transfer Factor, as I know that I had an active infection of CMV (no treatment, then), latent EBV, and probably HHV-6..

    Many thanks to Spacee for keeping Transfer Factor treatment out there,
  2. spacee

    spacee Member

    I have wondered about this too...

    I was NOT breastfed.

    Glad to share any info I can.....

    Thanks for the thank you!

  3. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    Hey Plantscaper!
    It is good to see you here once again! My OLE buddy. You know that OLE did help me but it just couldn't make my immune system smart enough. I have been on ImmuneCare 64 for 3 weeks and it has been totally awesome. Feeling well and having energy without crashing. I just hope these good results continue as I hate to get all pumped up and then POW the air goes out. lol. Keeping my fingers crossed.

    Anyway... to answer your question.
    I was a bottle fed baby.

    How does that make any difference? The colostrum from Mom's milk only is beneficial for the first few days, weeks or so. Then we're on our own. My vet explained this to me ( he did a better job than I'm doing) when I was asking him about my puppy being the runt of the litter & was pushed away from getting mother's first milk. She has had chronic bladder infections & swollen tonsils and I was blaming it on this. He said that runt stage is over & it wouldn't be true now that she is 9 months old she is no longer a runt, she is of normal weight, etc.

    I have put her on pet stress transfer factor by 4Life a few times and it seemed to help her. But when off it she gets sick again. Maybe she will have to live on it?

    My point: It doesn't seem like TF works unless you ALWAYS take it ... am I wrong? I'm trying to understand this stuff. The IC64 info says you will need to take it indefinitely. Doesn't that mean our immune system never actually learns its lesson for good but the TF has to teach it everyday? or so?

    Are you saying Mother's milk puts the lesson in the immune system permanently? Without it we have a real problem?
    Help me here.
  4. tansy

    tansy New Member

    so once again am the exception that proves the rule.

    I lived overseas as a child and in my early teens. I had problems with some really nasty pathogens, some insect borne and others due to untreated sewerage everywhere including in the sea (I was a trained swimmer and high board diver - even the pools had water from the sea) and it was used as fertiliser. Although I recovered from the acute stages of these I do think they caused problems at a deeper level, that's when my IBS (?) + + + started. I managed to stay relatively fit with a few dips until I had too many infections combined with 2 lots of surgery.

    I feel that I lost the advanges I gained from being breast fed. My brother nine years younger than I was bottle fed and he does not have ME/CFS or anything like it; though he does share the family's tendancy towards atopic allergies.

    I found one high IgG colustrum made for those who are milk intolerant has really helped, but I'm not sure if that is at all significant.

    [This Message was Edited on 02/26/2004]
  5. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    discusses the Immune System and Transfer Factor, they indicate that once the immune system has been exposed to a particular pathogen, it is ALWAYS SUPPOSE TO RECOGNIZE THAT INVADER", when exposed to it at some future time, with a

    ..example: CHICKEN POX.. just wondered if a breast fed child would have a stronger immune system, since first milk is suppose to transfer immunity for at least what the mother has been exposed to..


    My mother has always indicated to me that when I was young I really became very sick with all these different childhood diseases, with very high temperatures..WONDERED IF WOULD BE DIFFERENT IF BREAST FED..and she got mastoiditis, when she was pregnant with me and had to be treated with antibiotics AND I was born with a SEEMINGLY BENIGN yeast-caused disorder, WHICH MAY HAVE SET ME UP FOR THE SYSTEMIC YEAST SYNDROME. It might be stabbing the dark!

    Interestingly, but depressing, my mother has had her first case of shingles at age 79..probably due to the immune suppressant drugs that have been required to SAVE her life from Rhuematoid Vasculitis..
    (the Chicken pox,reactivated,by a weakened immune system)..
    I thought about you when that happened...Do you have any particular suggestions for her?

    It sounds like you having great success with TF..NO HERXING AT ALL?! I just expect herxing, now, although after using the OLE FOR OVER A YEAR, I retried some Doxy (only had a 2 week supply) and DID NOT HERX THIS TIME on it..


    [This Message was Edited on 02/28/2004]
  6. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    After reading your message, all I can say, OF COURSE, LIFE IS NEVER THIS SIMPLISTIC..


    I don't beleve, of course, that not being breastfed lead directly to our diseases (which may have been unintentionally conveyed), but it might be one more contributing factor, maybe, in my development of it, or someone else..as genetics is a contributing factor..my cousin has this disease, but my brother does NOT..I figure the genetic component probably comes from my father and his brother, who is her father..but that's only one factor. Of course, she is a female and is THE SENSITIVE TYPE, WHICH TENDS TO BE WHERE THIS DISEASE GRAVITATES TOWARDS..whereas, my brother is, of course, a male and is HIGHLY UNSENSITIVE..BUT that is another tale.


    [This Message was Edited on 02/28/2004]
  7. tansy

    tansy New Member

    not being breast fed does put individuals at a disadvantage. So whilst not the complete answer it's another part of these jigsaws we have to put together.

    Don't worry I had not assumed you were stating this as a fact but opening up a debate. I'm a great believer in asking questions; the sharing of ideas, information and research. Knowledge is power and without it how are we to make informed decisions? I must add though that I put equal importance upon intuition, gut feeling, or whatever else we might call it. Decisions made upon what feels right are usually the best ones for me.


    [This Message was Edited on 02/28/2004]
    [This Message was Edited on 02/28/2004]
  8. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    It is a contributory factor to my demise..I go with my gut when it feels right, but usually after much experential work..

    OLE just was right for me and I went with it..finding the other pieces has been more difficult..I hope the TF to be an OLE experience..It seems we have to do so much investigation with these DDs..

    I said to my mother "I don't think people realize how nice it is to have a CONVENTIONAL DISEASE"..


    I feel your frustration with medicine across the pond.. of course, we have problems with the CDC, the medical profession, as a whole, the general public..I admire people who do the advocacy work..sure sounds frustrating..though. But,
    Is the views of (The powerful) forced on people with national health care? (Of course, we don't have that model, here, yet)..But may have that choice in the future..
    [This Message was Edited on 02/28/2004]
    [This Message was Edited on 02/28/2004]
  9. tansy

    tansy New Member


    The situation across the pond gets worse, in part because in the words of many of it’s employees it is in crisis. When those running it feel obliged to produce the right figures, instead of quality of care, year upon year then the system grinding to a halt or failing is inevitable. A major rethink and some honesty (!) is needed but no signs of that just the usual spin and self interest predominating. Our health system was once the best in the world, now it’s a dinosaur and being used as an example by other governments upon what not to do. France has one of the best public health systems, not trouble free since it’s workers complain of the low pay etc, but still proof that such a health service within the public domain can work.

    As far as ME/CFS is concerned the level of deception and misuse of public funds is criminal. Simon Wessely failed to declare his interests, his role in PRISMA is to save insurance companies money to enabling them to avoid providing a fair deal for their customers. Now when making enquiries about insurance UK customers are frequently being told ME/CFS is not a physical condition which means no insurance poayouts or only for a few years. One wonders how long it will take for that to reverse after Wessely School’s failed attempt to get the WHO classification for the UK changed this year. He and a few of his colleagues are very ambitious and are spreading their influence worldwide. Our governments like them because when investigating Gulf War Syndrome on their behalves they failed to come up with anything that might help the veterans and their families struck down with terrible illnesses, their comment was individuals were sick when they knew some else who was.

    Hence the campaigning, even though much of it remains on small scale, that’s going on now. The proposed ME clinics are going ahead but most will only offer CBT and anti depressants, we want real investigations into our health problems and real treatments. So far there’s no sign any of them will be near where I live anyway, this is one of many black listed areas as far as specialised medicine is concerned.

    Yes I know what you mean about having a conventional illness Dx, Seeing any new health professional is always a stressful event because so few understand these DDs, even if they pretend to accept them what’s written on our records can often imply otherwise.

    Hope the TF goes well for you. Where is does work the benefits seem quite remarkable. Good luck.

  10. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    Point well taken.
    Why is it I can't believe my immune system will always be abnormal?
    I keep thinking like a normal immune system person in regards to how the TF should work... I guess I assume the TF will teach my immune system to be normal again. (maybe a slight possibility of that huh?)
    Anyway, thanks for weeding it out for me.
    I always enjoy talking to you and Tansy because you are both so very helpful and knowledgeable. Always willing to share your thoughts which I find very valuable.

    Well, you know I can't tell if I am herxing. The first two weeks I had improvement in fatigue, brain fog, aches, etc.
    The third week I got a flu/cold virus and between it and whatever herxing I may or may not had it was difficult to discern what was what?

    Since my hubby also had the flu/cold virus I matched my symptoms to his and the odd ones out I will call herxing.

    I have had trouble in what I call my weak areas as follows:

    I had terrible aches in my jaws and then it migrated to my neck, right shoulder and right upper back. I had to wear a thermacare band, take aspirin and rub in sportscreme for a couple days and not move wrong or the pain would have sent me over the edge. Fortunately it has gone now. Interesting enough to me is this right upper back area is where I had shingles - the trigger of CFIDS for me. (so i call weak area for me)

    Also interesting to me is that my toothache/headache symptoms began after Shingles and the TF seemed to really make my jaws where the tooth sockets are hurt big time. (so i call another weak area for me)

    The chronic pain at left side under the collar bone is feeling raw, burning and aching today. The TF has definitely made it feel worse but I think there is a serious infection in this area. It has been the bullseye in the target of pain when my illness bloomed so to speak. (my most stubborn weak area)

    I seem to have a clear head and good energy though. Other than body aches I am happy to say I am doing quite well on the TF. Starting my 4th week now and although I'm not completely well I am feeling better than before I took TF.

    There is a TF with antigens for shingles if it becomes a chronic problem with your mom. Perhaps this would turn the tide for her. If I ever have trouble with shingles again I would take it myself.

    I remember how you suffered with headaches with OLE until you found one without additives I believe. I have suffered brain swelling headaches with general TF before trying IC64. I am so happy that it hasn't become a problem so far. I certainly hope you don't have to go through that again. It is most dreadful and makes life unbearable I know. I am hoping and praying you have great benefits from TF and begin to take back life.

    Remember last spring when we were benefitting from months on OLE and able to do light gardening? I quit OLE at my GP's request last July. ND put me through Nystatin, oil of oregano, & mannapol treatment for yeast infection for a few months then. So my point is from July until January this year I was off OLE. I was progressively getting worse again - loosing energy. My theory is the pathogens were replicating especially between Nov. - Jan. when I was off both the yeast treatment & OLE.

    But now with TF & back on OLE I plan to be ready this spring to do more gardening! How about you?

    My best to you,
  11. tansy

    tansy New Member

    I'd been on first bromelain and then added wobenzyme n which I took up to the max dose 5 x 3. Having been on this protocol for quite some time I was about to quit and try something else when all hell was let loose, A lot of pain and problems followed, not the sort of herx everyone else had been talking about. Well for nearly three months I've had infections around my head and my middle ears are full of fluid with an infection too. My sinuses are really bad + + +. Well my illness followed two lots of surgery and infections close to or in these areas, so it's been a bit like your response to TF.

    Do keep us up to date on how the combination of TF and OLE goes.

    I saw an amazing doctor years ago who treated me for a few years, he's the one who also Dx the candida for which I will be eternally greatful. He told his patients that they should never expect the road to recovery to be smooth, it was almost always one of peaks and troughs which become less extreme and less frequent as the body becomes fitter and more energised.

    Sometimes it can be very difficult for us to differentiate between bad reaction/wrong treatments and the more unpleasant aspects of the healing process. Going about all this the natural way means you can tapet your treatments according to how things are going. I've always believed that in ME/CFS it is counterproductive to create too severe a herx or healing crisis, our bodies are not so good at dealing with them and rallying afterwards. Better to take it more slowly. When I got caught out breaking down the fibrin, plaque, and scar tissue I had been going slowly, I think it just got to the stage where it was becoming very effective and there was rather too much for my body to deal with in one go. So even the best laid plans.......

    [This Message was Edited on 03/01/2004]
  12. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    To CLD, Tansy or anyone...

    Have either one of you ever used Beta Sitosterol, a natural form of Cholestyramine? I really believe I need to be on the Ritchie Shoemaker's protocol and have been looking for a substitute for Choles. since I have such poor luck having a doctor to prescribe something.. I have had really bad oversensitivity to light accompanying my cognitive problems, and realized that is part of this therapy.

    Also, Rhodiola Rosea-Have either of you tried that yet?

    I am herxing today, but not with the brain-swelling and/or migraines..I seemingly have gone past that, unless, I really overextend, then my whole body reacts to that..and migraines have been known to knock me out of sleep.

    Have either of you been called on for jury duty?..I just don't think I can deal with that, at this point, how interesting it may be..I was an expert witness when I worked and it was interesting, but now, my brain is mush, and I cannot take long hours, especially supposedly concentrating on anything..Well, I got it postponed, but I have got to get a physician's excuse, and don't have any docs, right now.

    [This Message was Edited on 03/01/2004]
  13. tansy

    tansy New Member


    Unfortunately I don't think I'm going to be much help to you today.

    I have not tried Beta Sitosterol, but it has caught my eye when doing my research. Neurotoxions are I believe a major part of ME/CFS but may come from variety of pathogenic and toxic sources. This approach seems to have worked for some patients so I’d love to hear how you get on. I’m still light sensitive but it’s not as severe. The chronic blepharitis I have does seem to make my eyes more light sensitive when it’s at it’s worst though.

    As for Rhodiola Rosea, it’s on my list of things I might try in the future. It sounds promising and those it helps are really enthusiastic about it indicating it really makes a difference.

    I was called for jury service after I was ill. I had my disability allowance by then, my GP confirmed I would not be able to participate, there’s just no way I could have coped with it either. This was accepted. Wish you luck getting that sorted, jury service and ME/CFS are just not compatible.


  14. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    I don't know who has tried what..

    Just a light bulb turned on when I was reading about the connection between light sensitivity, which has been one of my bad problems (have to wear sunglasses, even inside, a lot), and brain problems..I had not connected those two, myself..but thinking back, when that started was at the same time as the brain symptoms..

    I value your input, whenever, but don't expect that you will have tried everything I put out there..just checking..

    That other board is so crowded...kind of nice to have a slower board over here.


  15. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    Thanks Plantscaper... I will look into beta sitosterol and rhodiola-rosea. I know nothing about them.

    My light sensitivity has diminished over the months so I think I have cleansed some toxins out. At least I like to think I have. ;) I certainly have been on a healthy regime at any rate.

    Great Mongoose! Jury duty! That would be a very taxing way to spend the day. I had jury duty just before I took ill and I well remember; to do a good job you have to be very attentive to the proceedings. I don't think my brain could handle more than a couple of hours before melting into a useless glob now.

    Glad to hear you haven't had those terrible migraine or brain swelling headaches. They are the worst! My brain got fuzzy yesterday and seems to be somewhat today also. I am praying it doesn't accelerate into one of those headaches. I cheated on my diet yesterday and put some soda crackers into my homemade split pea soup. I think that was the culprit. I really have to stick to basic foods or I get into trouble every time. Eating has become such a bore.

    Well, enough of my sniveling. lol. I am grateful I still have more energy and can accomplish more tasks each day. What an improvement this makes in our living environment!

    Hope your herxing isn't too awful and you begin to feel good soon. Keep us posted how it goes.

  16. CelticLadee

    CelticLadee New Member

    Yes, I have been considering using MSM. The Boswellia was working for me until lately so I had put it off. Thanks for the reminder though. I couldn't sleep last night very well and need to resolve this pain, as you know not sleeping compounds our problems.

    As far as DeMeirlier research I'm not completely sure how it all works. But from my notes from Triple Cow and David this is how they explained it:

    Bowellia and Rosemary correct the cleavage of the RnaseL actually, but inhibiting native elastase, which is very high usually in CFIDS. The STAT-1 alpha comes before the Rnase-L degradation and has to do with some sort of pathogen or Huntington's gene. No one is sure how the STAT-1 alpha fits in yet but the RNaseL is the main problem here, and when it and the P53 are corrected, it is also corrected. Lycopene products were the natural alternative to promote (do you think "prevent" was meant here?) cell destruction (apoptosis) for the P53 pathway. It goes back and forth in CFIDS.

    The three substances that become dysregulated: STAT-1alpha, elastase and P53. The events start with STAT-1 alpha which is a signal transducer substance, ie. communicator. Next is elastase. We have a limited lifetime supply of elastase the last charge being at the time of our final growth spurt so once its gone ... its gone.The third substance, P53, acts as a sentinal to find dysfunctional cells and mark them for apotosis. (cell death)

    Hope this helps you. Sujay will have a good explanation I'm sure. She is so wonderful and helpful.

    I have been taking small doses of lycopene & boswellia for a few months now.

    I keep trying to figure out ways to cut back on supplements and the expense but it seems the reverse is happening. I can't keep this up and need to evaluate the results. IC64 costs me about $5.00 a day not to mention all the rest. I won't give it up but some others are going to have to go. Time to streamline.

    I've been thinking about your mom and the shingles. Did she get help from her doctor? Some here have said you can get a shot of ? something to lessen the long term effects if you get the shot on the onset. Sorry... can't remember what it was now. Also L-Lysine capsules are good for herpes. I've been on them for a couple of years. Hope your mom is feeling better each day. I know it is very uncomfortable although my case was a mild one.

    My Dad has suffered for 7 years since he had it. He goes to a dermatologist and has painful scars & spots and growths burnt off every few months which all resulted from his shingles. Wicked stuff. He lost some vision in one eye also and has had a lot of pain in that eye. If your mom has shingles on her head/face and it is affecting her eye she needs to get treatment ASAP.

    Take care and be well.
  17. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    to just reiterate that explanation..and I thank you for your effort..hope to hear about it in more layman terms..Sujay explained Hypercoagulation, in such
    descriptive terms that I hope for that for this.

    My mother has gotten over her acute case of Shingles with Valtrex..she wants to do the pharmaceutical route, right now, although I wish she would take a more natural route, but we do have to be very careful with anything that may interfere/react with Coumadin, which interacts with so many herbs/medications, etc.

    She has had blood clots in her legs (due to being bedridden), and therefore, has to be on that drug..I have told her that Transfer Factor is not suppose to react with any medication, herb, vitamin, etc.
    Is Lysine a preventative? Really appreciate all the info on Shingles..sounds awful what your Dad has been thru..hope he is doing better.

    Is Boswellia for pain symptoms in the muscles/joints?..Is there any other symptom improvement from its use? Can you not get enough lycopene from food sources like tomatoes/ketchup, etc? (haven't seen what the dosage needs are for that).

    Hope your days will improve,
    Take care,
  18. tansy

    tansy New Member

    Lysine helps prevent viral replication, I take 1,000mg three times a day, the recomended dosage. Quite a lot of us are using this supp and I would have thought it very worthwhile in your mother's case. I cannot get my mother to try many of the safer alternatives either, neither can my sister and she's a pharmacist.

    I too take boswellia. Having been seemingly too successful with the fibrin breakdown etc I needed something to help with the increased muslce/joint pan and stiffness. In light of research I felt all those of us with ME/CFIDS/CFS where viral infection(s) are involved should protect ourselves with an elastase inhibitor and boswellia does that too. It does help, in my case nothing spectacular but there's is a significant difference If I stop my boswellia.

    In terms of lycopene 15 mg would seem to be a good therapeutic dose and is the amount used in the trial on elderly patients whose levels of natural killer cells. I take this too, again in light of research I think it's an essential safeguard for us.

    How's taking the TF going now?


  19. Plantscaper

    Plantscaper New Member

    Thanks for sharing your experience with the Boswellia..I will probably be ordering that soon..do you herx on that, too?

    I always heard of using Lysine for cold sores, but I haven't had that problem..in fact, my mother has had a lot of friends who had Shingles, but she did not until her immune-suppressant drugs. Do you use it for our DDs, as another anti-viral?

    With success in the Fibrin breakdown, was that, due to the use of Bromelain? I have just upped my dose of Bromelain, because I finally found out that one should be on at least 6000 G.D.U./day..got disconnected from the internet before I got that verified..have still been thinking about using Nattokinase or Lumbrokinase..do you know of people doing well with it?

    Have you looked over there at the Lassesen website? It has some new ideas...I keep running into more sites, lately on our DDs..thinking I should explore more..have seen some of your messages..YOU GET AROUND..

    Regarding the Transfer Factor- I have decided to slow down my dose..as I got so I WAS TOTALLY KNOCKED OUT BY IT and needed to get some housework/bills paid/computer work..so I am going AT A SLOWER PACE..THE FOURTH DAY WAS THE KICKER..SO I AM GOING TO USE IT EVERY 2-3RD DAY..or less if I have to get some other things accomplished.

    I have high hopes and I will stick with it, but this is usually the best part of my month (just had my period) and I need to get some work done, need to find a new doc (which I dread) AND other appointments...as I am going to be called on again for jury duty (soon) and I have to have an written excuse from a doc (like an elementary student)..

    I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY CAN'T UNDERSTAND, FROM ME, THAT I CANNOT DO IT..BUT THIS IS LIKE ONE OF THOSE BUREAUCRATIC C****y agencies. HECK, I have a problem "burning up my food" when I am too focused on the computer (just burned up my cauliflower).

    Do you know of any agencies/websites/whatever where one could find out about supplement's quality/contain what is indicated, etc? (Klutzo has said a lot don't)..I don't know how to resource that..have been looking for objective, unbiased reports..

    THESE DDs have dragged on way too long for me, and I am sure for you, too. I WISH WE COULD FIND THE ANSWER..



    [This Message was Edited on 03/05/2004]
    [This Message was Edited on 03/05/2004]
  20. tansy

    tansy New Member


    I did not herx on boswellia, no one should; it’s effects build up over time. I use frankincense essential oil externally when very stiff and sore (inflammed), I recognised a similar smell when I opened my pot of boswellia.

    I use lysine as an anti viral, I got some on special offer and felt it would help my regime. Since my programme is so extensive it's dificult to say whether the lysine on it's own is making a difference but it seemed a sensible thing to do.

    Yes I’ve seen the Lassen site. I found it early in my research on hyper coagulation and chronic/stealth infections. Then it was my starting point. Now I use accidental patient and look for a cure for a lot of my info and links as to where I can access more. Klutzo uses both these boards regularly, especially AP. I think when trying to access all the available info you need to check out all the sites, they each have their own priorities and personalities.

    I too found out it was the GDUs that count not the mgs, I was on 6,000 a day plus the max dose of wobenzyme when all hell was suddenly let lose. I had taken my doses up with care but it was as if it just suddenly broke through. I asked around and it was generally agreed that the consequences were due to what had been released and it did make sense to me. I stopped them, just used enzymes I knew I could tolerate but nothing improved. I went onto serrapeptase for this and because the fluid in my middle ears (infection too!) just won’t go. It did much as claimed but did not clear the fluid in my ears and had an adverse effect on my bowels, which was already calming down before I ceased using it. So I think it might have been part of the therapeutic effect but not sure what. I’m back on just 6,000 GDU of bromelain but I do take other herbs and supps which help address the hyper coagulation.

    I ordered the 200 to try but only collected it from the post office on Thursday. We have to pay VAT, a handling charge and collect it which makes it much more expensive and troublesome. If this works the costs will rise dramatically, at full dose my bottle will only last 10 days. I won’t start mine now until after the 21st when it’s my sister’s birthday celebration. Attending that is already well beyond what I can realistically do, if I’m fluish and more debilitated I won’t be able to go. Afterwards I will feel so ***** it won’t matter if the TF makes me worse, it might even speed up recovering from the overexertion. I’ve heard of other cases where TF has had to be started a one cap every 2 or 3 days so you are not alone in having to do that. We all have dysfunctional immune systems and different pathogen loads; we cannot expect to feel the same when we stir things up.

    My periods have ceased now but I had exactly the same best week within my cycle, it is the part of the cycle when all women have more energy and tend to feel good, I think we just notice it more. Maybe the researhers should look into this, the changes in levels of hromones and perhaps much more might offer more insight into treatment options.

    Have yet to find one site on the true contents of vits and mins. I’m assuming mine are alright, I shop around but I’m mindful of this problem. I’ve e mailed mikie asking her to send you my e mail addy.

    Hope you get this business with the jury service sorted soon.


    [This Message was Edited on 03/06/2004]