QUESTION for RICH: Detoxifying?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by nitekitty, Jun 2, 2008.

  1. nitekitty

    nitekitty New Member

    Okay, so I'm on the CFS protocol with some adjustments for my orthostatic intolerance (vasovagal syncope specifically) and what my body can handle right now. So far so good.

    However, yesterday I woke up with theee worst metallic taste in my mouth all day. Everything I ate and drank was metallic. And the more water I drank, the drier my mouth got.

    Now, I'm taking the vitamins, but nothing like psyllium, milk thistle, charcoal, or licorice root. (all of which different people are telling me I should take one or more in order to rid my body of toxins, based on the metallic taste is evidence for the protocol working however the toxins floating around in my body now.)

    I've read the powerpoint presentation over and over. I get a lot of the science.

    My questions are--
    1.) What exactly ARE the "toxins"? I thought it was mainly Ammonia, Hydrogen Sulfide, Sulfite, Oxidizing agents. And I thought one of the basic concepts of the protocol is to raise the Glutathione in order for THAT to detoxify.

    2.) Should I be taking something to detoxify that I'm missing in my supplementing?

    This is what I'm taking right now:
    (Phosphatidyl combo gelcap)

    Molybdenum chelate (with a bit of calcium)

    Folic Acid
    Folinic Acid

    D3 (sometimes take seperately at a later time)

    Magnesium chelate
    Potassium Gluconate

    Co enzyme Q10 - GELCAP
    TMG/ Betaine

    Acetyl L-Carnitine

    Seperate from other vitamins at seperate times and sometimes not necessarily everyday:

    Taurine &

    Niacinamide &
    GTF Chromium

    Acai extract


    As needed when anxiety is unbareable late at night/ maybe once a week if that:
    GABA & Theanine

    Have upped the frequency of GABA lately due to the "bing bong bing bong" brain over-firing I've been experiencing.

    Going to Add:

    I was a little low on Citrulline and Serine in my blood work so I chose to begin supplementing those as well as the other regular CFS protocol stuff.

    Please advise. I know I'm not taking everything. But I have trouble taking B6 for some reason, and other stuff I haven't added yet because I'm not sure I can add much more without my kidneys giving out. They are fairly sensitive to supplements, but so far what I'm on has been okay. So far I'm a little less fatigued and not so light headed. It's been about 3 weeks on this stuff. Gradually building up. Only Recently had just added TMG, D-Ribose, and Co-Q 10.

    Thanks so much,


    [This Message was Edited on 06/03/2008]
  2. marti_zavala

    marti_zavala Member

    Which CFS protocol are you on - the Simplified Methylation Protocol or Yasko's Comprehensive Methylation Protcol

    Rich's Simplified Meth. Prot. is a subset of the Comprehensive and it is basically Step 2 of Yasko's protocol.

    It sounds like you are on both. There are some supplements that you should be OFF while doing the protocol. Glutatmine and calcium, all aspartate and I don't believe chelated minerals are okay. B6 is not on the list either, which explains why you can't take it.
    I didn't think niancimide was okay either, a different form of niacin but not this one. Also the folic acid is the wrong kind as well, it should be folate, the more bioactive version.

    GABA and Theanine are very Okay to take, not sure why you are skimping on those. They are supposed to help detox as well.

    Arginine is supposedly a reactivator of viruses but I would have to verify that.

    I am new to the protocol and have been studying it for a while. It seems to me that you are going very fast. YOu don't specify the type of B12 and the amount.

    It sounds like you have reviewed Dr. Amy's website but I would be curious to know which presentation you are reading.

    Did you know there is a yahoo board covering the Yasko protocol?

  3. nitekitty

    nitekitty New Member

    I'm looking off of Rich's simplified protocol, listed from his powerpoint presentation.

    And I must take Arginine, Taurine, and Glutamine in order to function. Have been on those way before I ever tried anything else.

    Niacinamide is supposed to be the appropriate one to use of Niacin. Absorbs better.
    Same with Chelated minerals.

    Furthermore, I'm a vasovagal syncope patient. I need to taylor my vitamin regimen regarding the needs of that.

    I cannot do some of it like PABA (because allergic)......

    Here is the treatment plan from the powerpoint----
    Consists of five nutritional supplements, taken daily:

    1. Hydroxocobalamin (2,000 micrograms, sublingual)

    2. 5-Methyl tetrahydrofolate (200mcg)

    3. Combination of [folic acid, 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate, and folinic acid] (200 mcg), cyanocobalamin (125 mcg), calcium (22.5 mg), phosphorus (17.25 mg), and intrinsic factor (5 mg)

    4. A multivitamin, multimineral supplement including antioxidants, trimethylglycine, nucleotides, supplements to support the sulfur metabolism, a high ratio of magnesium to calcium, and no iron or copper (up to two tablets)

    5. Phosphatidyl serine complex (one softgel)

    Note: Even though this treatment consists only of nutritional supplements, patients who are on it need to be under the care of a physician, in order that any individual health issues that may arise may be properly dealt with.

    Composition of multi-vitamin, multi-mineral supplement used in “simplified treatment approach”

    Serving Size: 6 Tablets (note that up to 2 tablets per day are used in the treatment)

    Amount per serving: Vitamin A (as palmitate)5000 IU,Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)500 mg,Vitamin D (as cholecaliciferol)400 IU,Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopheryl succinate)400 IU,Vitamin K (as phytonadione)40 mcg,Vitamin B-1 (as benfotiamine)25 mg,Vitamin B-2 (as riboflavin)12.5 mg,Niacin (as niacinamide)37.5 mg,Vitamin B-6 (as pyridoxal-5-phosphate)12.5 mg,Folic Acid100 mcg,Vitamin B-12 (cyanocobalamin B12)250 mcg,Biotin150 mcg,Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate)50 mg,Calcium (as calcium d-glucarate)25 mg,Magnesium (as citrate, oxide)100 mg,Zinc (as monomethionine)5 mg,Selenium (as L-selenomethionine)100 mcg,Manganese (as arginate)1 mg,Chromium (as polynicotinate)100 mcg,Molybdenum (as amino acid chelate)75 mcg,Potassium (as citrate)5 mg,Broccoli florets powder160 mg,Citrus bioflavonoids50 mg,Choline (as bitartrate)25 mg,Inositol25 mg,PABA (para-amino benzoic acid)5 mg,Garlic (Allium sativum) bulb powder200 mg,L-methionine150 mg,Milk thistle (Silybum marianum) seed extract100 mg,N-acetyl-cysteine75 mg,Pine (Pinus maritimus) bark extract25 mg,Taurine250 mg,Turmeric (Curcuma longa) root extract50 mg,Intrinsic Factor5 mg,Trimethylglycine (TMG)50 mg, Free Form Nucleotide Complex100 mg,Boron1 mg,L-Carnitine (Tartrate)100 mg.


    I also combined Rich's protocol, with my specific needs, and then with this:

    Dr. Sinatra recommends the following daily cocktail for CFS [Reference The Sinatra Solution: Metabolic Cardiology.4]:

    Co-enzyme Q 10
    300 - 360 mg (the oil of the engine, this moves electrons from one molecule to another)

    2,000 - 3,000 mg (the oil of the engine, this moves ATP and ADP across mitochondria membranes)

    15 grams (the raw material to make new ATP)

    400 – 800 mg (the spark plugs, this fires up many enzyme reactions)

    To this I would also add niacinamide 500 mgs daily (the raw material to make NAD).

    I would expect this cocktail of supplements to work best taken together, not as individual supplements. I have tried a number of my patients on this cocktail of supplements and have already had some very encouraging feedback.

    Incidentally this helps explain why some CFS sufferers have such problems with drug medication, and indeed this may help to point toward treatment. All my CFS patients feel much worse on statins because these stop the body from making its own Co Q 10. Beta blockers, tricyclic antidepressants, and phenothiazines also block Co Q 10 synthesis.

    There is no point taking this cocktail until you have done my standard work up [tests] to treating CFS. This is because normally the body is perfectly capable of making its own Coenzyme Q 10 and its own D-ribose so long as it has all the vitamins, minerals, EFAs [essential fatty acids], and amino acids to do so.

    Vitamin B3 and magnesium come from supplements, and acetyl L-carnitine from red meat (and mutton specifically is much higher in L-carnitine than any other red meat).

    The supplements in the Sinatra protocol are expensive, so for those who would like to try it I suggest the following: [Note that patients in England and Wales may contact Dr. Myhill’s office to order kits for these tests, which they may receive by mail and provide to their personal healthcare professionals. Contact information, and details on sourcing of supplements for patients in the UK are available on the Dr. Myhill website at ]

    n Measure levels of Co Q 10 to show there is a deficiency.

    n Measure NAD levels.

    n Measure red cell magnesium.

    n Co-enzyme Q 10. This must be in a hydrosoluble or oil form or it is not well absorbed. Co Q 10 is fairly widely available.

    n Acetyl L-carnitine. This is an amino acid with highest levels in meat (the word carnitine comes from “carne” meaning meat). This may explain why vegetarians are at risk of CFS. It also partly explains why my CFS patients do best on high protein diets. Eat red meat daily for acetyl L-carnitine: The best source is mutton. Vegetarians will have to take the supplement. If you have poor digestion then you may need to supplement with L-carnitine anyway.

    n D-ribose. Needs to be taken throughout the day.

    n Niacinamide. 500 mgs.

    n Magnesium. in [a mineral supplement]. But if there is a severe deficiency, then magnesium by injection may be required.
    [This Message was Edited on 06/03/2008]
  4. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    I haven't had that strong metallic taste in my mouth, Gen, but I remember other people mentioning something like that. I wonder if it could mean that your body has too many toxic metals in it.

    All I can add is what others have already told you -- that it helped me to eat soluble fiber in order to get the toxins out. Taking Benefiber pills really had an effect. But before I figured that out, I just ate more cereal. Lisa P. liked aribinogalactin, and Kelly liked the Jarrow Heavy Metals detox, which is a blend of soluble fiber and stuff.

    I am guessing that Rich would just refer you to your doctor for individual treatment questions. Maybe you could think of a theoretical way to put your question so he could answer it.


    [This Message was Edited on 06/05/2008]
  5. nitekitty

    nitekitty New Member

    Yes, ...... hmmm.......

    I guess I want to know more about Rich's protocol---
    Rich, Are there certain things in the protocol meant to detoxify and get rid of metal taste? If so what are those? Is that what the Milk Thistle is for, for instance?

    In the protocol and through the research-- have previous patients experienced metallic taste (which I see the powerpoint says yes indeed) and if so what does that mean? Did they use something to counteract this? Something to detoxify? If so, what was it?
  6. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    When we detox, the toxins come out in our bodily fluids, sweat, saliva, urine. Perhaps the metalic taste is the metal being chelated out of your system. I get a metalic taste from time to time when I'm taking the supps but it never lasts.

    Love, Mikie
  7. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, nitekitty.

    As you noted, I wrote that other people have reported experiencing a metallic taste in their mouth while on the "simplified treatment approach."

    As has been suggested, I suspect that this is a result of the detox system coming back into operation as the methylation cycle operation and glutathione levels are improved. The methylation cycle is at the beginning of the body's sulfur metabolism, and many aspects of the detox system in the body depend on sulfur-containing substances.

    I suspect that a wide variety of toxins accumulate in the body of a person who has a methylation cycle block and glutathione depletion, while they are ill. Some of them are metals, such as mercury, lead, cadmium, arsenic (not strictly a metal), aluminum, and others. Other toxins that can accumulate are pesticides, organic solvents, phenolic compounds from foods, pharmaceuticals, and substances generated within the normal metabolism of the body, which can reach toxic levels if not removed.

    When the detox system liberates a toxin ion or molecule from somewhere in the body and it enters the blood stream, because of what is called the "dynamic equilibrium" concept in chemistry, the toxin can be released elsewhere in the body. In other words, it's one thing to remove a toxin from a living cell somewhere in the body, and another thing to successfully usher it out in the stools, the urine or the sweat. The "ball can be dropped" somewhere between these two processes.

    When a person has a metallic taste in their mouth on this treatment, I suspect that what has occurred is that metal ions have been removed from cells and have entered the blood stream. Some are carried to the saliva glands, and some come loose from their carrier molecules because of the dynamic equilibrium effect (The dynamic equilibrium basically means that you have a large number of similar molecules, and at any time some are binding other molecules, and some are releasing them. Chemistry looks at the average effect of a large number of molecules, but most chemical reactions are reversible, i.e. able to go in either direction.) So some metal ions are secreted in the saliva and enter the mouth, where they can produce a metallic taste.

    So what can one do about this? I think that some of this is going to be inevitable during detox, but I have suggested that people read the book called "The 7-Day Detox Miracle." I think it's a pretty good book, and it gives some ideas for enhancing the removal of toxins from the body. Hopefully others will post their experiences with various binders, and some already have.

    I hope this helps.

  8. nitekitty

    nitekitty New Member

    Cool. Thanks. I will look that book up.

    Gen ;)
  9. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    If we already have metal in our dental work, any metal in our saliva can react with the metal already in our mouths. It's like the reaction which sometimes happens when an eating utensil comes in contact with metal in a tooth. Zing!

    Rich, I'm still detoxing from a couple of days' worth of the supps taken over the weekend. I look at these symptoms of detox as such a good thing and I always feel better afterward. I'm just so sensitive to the supps that I don't think I could tolerate them every day. I'd never get out of the loo.

    Love, Mikie
  10. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I'm not very happy when toxins come out in my saliva either. I've had it much more with mold detox (when I first got out of my house) than with methylation, but either way it's annoying!

    First, I suggest spitting out whatever is bad. It's pointless for it to be channeled that way if it's not going to go out. (Once I spit a large glass of saliva in about two hours. Yuck, but it seemed a good thing.)

    The other thing to do is to maximize detox through other channels. I like the following:

    * Arabinagalactan. Binds toxins in the gut, carrying them out. (I sometimes get nauseated, and this does a good job at stopping the vomiting.)

    * Detox foot pads. These are controversial, but I have found them helpful. My doctor (M.D. Indiana University, board certified internist, residency at a top Indianapolis hospital) suggested them spontaneously for my issues before I even brought them up. They may be more useful for chemical than metal toxins, though I'm not absolutely sure of that.

    * Lots of vitamin C. I believe that oral vitamin C brings toxins out in the urine. Vitamin C through IV's has been SUPER effective for me with regard to bringing out mold poison, and my doctor said that it's useful for chemical toxins (e.g. from prescription and illegal drugs) as well. We didn't talk about metals since to my knowledge that's not my main issue.

  11. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Mikie.

    I think you have the right attitude toward the detoxing. It can't be much fun, but it really is moving you in the right direction in the long run.

  12. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    Arginine is a manganese containing amino acid. If you are deficient in manganese arginine isn't going to do it's job.
  13. nitekitty

    nitekitty New Member

    I have no reason to believe I'm deficient in Maganese.
    I take Arginine because I was tested and found to be deficient in HydroxyProline (arginine is a precursor).
    And also because it makes it so that I do not bruise easily. Otherwise I get theeee worst green and blue bruises from the slightest contact.
    Take care,
    [This Message was Edited on 06/04/2008]
  14. nitekitty

    nitekitty New Member

    I can't take much Vitamin C. Otherwise I quickly end up with a urinary tract infection that goes into a bladder infection. EXTREMELY sensitive to Vitamin C and B6.

    take care,

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