Rich / anyone Kreb's block = malabsorption glucose sodium aminos

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by xchocoholic, May 23, 2008.

  1. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic New Member

    Rich posted this the other day about how our Kreb's cycles are blocked. Not that I understand all of this, but basically the Kreb's cylce is how our bodies utilize energy. An interuption in this cycle explains our muscle weakness and fatigue.

    http://www.immunesupport.com/chat/forums/message.cfm?id=1271649&B=FM#1271884

    From what I understand of the Kreb's cycle, mine is partially working now.

    I've been salt loading since May 1st, 2008 due to orthostatic hypotension. I noticed immediately that I didn't have to lay down as much and in just the first few days my muscles weren't feeling as weak as before.

    I can vacuum the LR/DR/K without sitting down within 15 minutes as opposed to it taking a whole day with hour long breaks after 5 minutes of vacuuming. I don't have to sit afterwards either. So obviously, my muscles are now getting the fuel they need. It wasn't a matter of deconditioning either since the improvement was too quick.

    I'm just learning about sodium, but I know it's required for our cells to absorb nutrients. It does much more than that though. Potassium is required too. As well as aminos.

    The problem is that I'm still getting fuzzy headed after being active for 20 minutes. The last time this happened, I tried eating a healthy meal including fruit and drinking salt water, but it didn't help.

    BUT Then I tried some OJ and IMMEDIATELY felt GREAT !! Obviously, my brain was just glucose deprived even though I'd eaten a meal including fruit.

    It appears like I best absorb sodium and glucose in liquid form. Or at least after 20 minutes of activity when my BP has gone down due to OI. Meaning I no longer have enough blood going to my brain so my oxygen and glucose are too low. I'm hoping this resolves itself after my blood volume has increased. (Knock on wood)

    I'm not sure how or if other dietary changes played a role in this. So far severe gluten intolerance has accounted for my nuero symptoms.


    Is anyone familiar with all of this ??? Has anyone experienced this ?

    Thanks ... marcia

    PS. Does any of this make sense ? I'm at that information overload stage ...

    For those of you who don't know me, I've been disabled with this DD since 1990 and now I appear to be healing. Look at my profile to get the details.

    [This Message was Edited on 05/26/2008]
  2. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, xchocoholic.

    I'm glad you found something that seems to help.

    I'm not sure what caused your fuzzy-headedness after activity, but perhaps it was low blood sugar, as you wrote. Perhaps potassium was also involved, since orange juice contains quite a bit of that, also, and a balance between sodium and potassium is important for brain function.

    As you may know, I'm a proponent of looking into a possible block in the methylation cycle in CFS, and treating it if found, because I believe it is at the basis of many of the other problems in most cases of CFS. You can find information about testing for this in one of my other posts of today.

    Rich
  3. marti_zavala

    marti_zavala Member

    your logic sounds reasonable. It makes sense to me and that seems to happen to me as well.

    A combination of salty and sweet keeps me more active longer.

    I have used the glucose pills diabetics use as they are dextrose which is supposed to be absorbed faster than other sugars. Now I am adding in Thermotabs (sodium/potassium pills) or using Cheney's no salt tablets with sea salt when I am home.

    Also, I have added compression socks when I am doing chores and I am doing so much better.

    Add to this mix, thyroid and I am now cleaning house a couple of times a week. Yahooo!

    Marti
  4. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic New Member

    Hi Rich,

    Thanks for replying. This isn't working every time I get fuzzy headed, but I'm hoping that the salt loading will increase my blood volume and it will start working more often. Knock on wood ... It would help if I'd remember to bring my OJ with me too. LOL

    The fuzzy headedness upon exertion (verified via nueropsych testing) is one of those symptoms that was used to quantify my CFS/ME/FM diagnosis. I was hoping you'd read about my experience and say "AH HAH, If this works then you need to do blah blah blah ... ".

    I'm aware that you are working on the methylation cycle block but ... thanks for doing this btw ... I would think that the Kreb's cycle has to be tied in somehow. I'm not up on all the GD-MCB lingo though. If what I'm doing doesn't work out for me though, I'll keep it in mind.



    Kelly,

    Thanks. Yes it's nice / shocking when something so simple works.

    I still have to try to understand the difference between all of the types of sugars. I'm using OJ at this point since it's good for us anyways and it could be the potassium I'm needing. For some reason, possibly villi damage, I seem to do better with nutrients in liquid form.

    I'll have to get some more molasses. Mine is past it's due date. I'll let you know if it works though.





    Marti

    Thanks for replying. I'm glad you're doing this too. Or something similar. What do you mean when you say salty and sweet ? When I read that I remembered that honey roasted nuts or chicken nuggets with a sweet sauce used to make me feel better. I wonder why this is ...


    I'll have to look for the glucose pills diabetics use although, I'm not good with pills normally. What are Cheney's no salt tablets ? I bought "No Salt" by Morton at Walmart but only tried it once. Other forms of potassium, like coconut water, seem to help me more.

    I'm going to look for some compression socks. Do you recommend any in particular ?

    Do you have to lay down every few hours for an hour to regulate your blood pressure ? I can't seem to go without this yet. My BP after 2 minutes of standing is looking better though. I checked it for the first time in a few weeks yesterday and it didn't drop within the first hour. But, then I forgot to check it again ... I am thinking it may be activity related too though.

    It's funny that we think getting to clean is a big deal. LOL ... I'm the same way though. I hate a dirty house, but my heavy body just wasn't cooperating. It's better now, but I'm still using a lot of energy to do a little work.

    TC ... Marcia
  5. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, xchocoholic.

    "The fuzzy headedness upon exertion (verified via nueropsych testing) is one of those symptoms that was used to quantify my CFS/ME/FM diagnosis. I was hoping you'd read about my experience and say "AH HAH, If this works then you need to do blah blah blah ... ".

    I'm aware that you are working on the methylation cycle block but ... thanks for doing this btw ... I would think that the Kreb's cycle has to be tied in somehow. I'm not up on all the GD-MCB lingo though. If what I'm doing doesn't work out for me though, I'll keep it in mind."


    Well, actually, though I can't give individual treatment advice unless a physician is directly involved, I can tell you that both the low blood volume and the Krebs cycle partial block can be explained by the GD-MCB hypothesis.

    In this hypothesis, glutathione depletion in the hypothalamus/pituitary causes low secretion of antidiuretic hormone (arginine vasopressin). This causes the kidneys to remove too much water from the blood and dump it into the urine. That leads to high daily urine volume and constant thirst, which in turn leads to consumption of large amounts of fluids. However, the person is not able to keep up with the water loss to the urine, so the total blood volume goes down.

    According to this hypothesis, the Krebs cycle partial block in CFS usually occurs at the enzyme aconitase, and it occurs because of a rise in oxidizing free radicals (superoxide, and also peroxynitrite, as Prof. Pall has suggested).

    After the methylation cycle block has set in, other problems arise that affect the Krebs cycle and the respiratory chain, which works together with it to produce ATP to power many reactions in the cells. Low methylation capacity decreases the production of carnitine, which normally ushers fatty acids into the mitochondria to be burned, and coenzyme Q10, which is used to carry electrons in the respiratory chain. Both these have been found to be deficient in CFS. Low glutathione also causes the cells not to be able to retain magnesium well, and that has also been observed in CFS.

    So what I mean to say is that both the low blood volume, which can lead to brain fog and many other symptoms, and the block in energy utilization by the cells, can be explained in a specific and straightforward way by the biochemical changes that occur when glutathione becomes depleted and the methylation cycle becomes partly blocked. This is true also for a large number of CFS symptoms and biochemical observations, and perhaps ultimately all of them, though I haven't sorted them all out yet. I think the hypothesis as it currently exists is convincing enough to justify trying to lift the methylation cycle block, and this approach seems to be helping about two thirds of the people with CFS who try it. I am currently working to understand what is going on in the other one third.

    Rich
  6. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic New Member

    Rich,

    Thanks again for your reply. I have to tell you I've read this about 5 times and am still trying to understand it. LOL

    We'll get there eventually ...

    Thanks again ... Marcia
  7. mylilcherub428

    mylilcherub428 New Member

    for some info I want thanx-Kim
  8. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic New Member

    This is the best article I've seen that explains that orthostatic intolerance (POTS,NMH) causes brain fog when upright for any length of time and how it causes post exertional fatigue.

    I only copied in a small section and edited it so we can read it easier, but the whole article is a must read for anyone with OI.

    http://www.pediatricnetwork.org/medical/OI/johnshopkins.htm

    How does upright posture lead to these problems?

    When a healthy individual stands up, gravity causes about 10-15% of his or her blood to settle in the abdomen or limbs.

    This pooling of blood means that less blood reaches the brain, the result of which can be a feeling of lightheadedness, seeing stars, darkening of vision, or even fainting.

    For most of us, this lightheaded feeling is infrequent when we stand up because the body turns on a series of rapid reflex responses.

    To make up for the lower amount of blood returning to the heart immediately after standing, the body releases norepinephrine and epinephrine (also known as adrenaline).

    These substances typically cause the heart to beat a little faster and with more force (a familiar feeling after we exercise or are frightened), and cause the blood vessels to tighten or constrict.

    The end result is more blood returning to the heart and brain. Most of the time, we are unaware of these reflex changes in blood flow when we stand up.





    When people with either NMH or POTS are upright, they appear to pool a larger amount of blood in vessels below the heart.

    More blood settles in the limbs the longer the person remains upright. The body responds by releasing more norepinephrine or epinephrine, in an attempt to cause more constriction of the blood vessels.

    For a variety of reasons, not all of which are well understood, the blood vessels do not seem to respond normally to these substances (either they dilate too much or they do not constrict efficiently). Because the heart remains able to respond, we often see an increased heart rate.




    In those with POTS, the main result of excessive pooling of blood during upright posture is an exaggerated rise in heart rate.

    In those with NMH, the main result is a reflex lowering of blood pressure. Some of this is caused by a "miscommunication" between the heart and the brain, both of which usually are structurally normal.

    Just when the heart needs to beat faster to pump blood to the brain and prevent fainting, the brain sends out the message that the heart rate should be slowed down, and the blood vessels should dilate further.

    These actions take even more blood away from the central part of the circulation where it is needed.

    At this time, it is not entirely clear why some people develop NMH and some develop POTS, although it may relate in part to the balance of epinephrine and norepinephrine release in the system.





    Which symptoms can be caused by NMH or POTS?

    Any time the brain is getting too little blood flow, the usual result is a lightheaded or spacey feeling.

    Recurrent lightheadedness is a common symptom of both NMH and POTS.

    If lightheadedness is severe, individuals may have dimming of their vision, may hear sounds as though they were far away, and may have nausea or vomiting.

    They may faint because not enough blood is getting to the brain. Fainting is helpful, in that it restores a person to the flat position, removing the effect of gravity on blood pooling in the limbs, and allowing more blood to return to the heart.


    **** Here is where they say this causes PEM ****


    Following the episodes of lightheadedness or fainting, most people feel tired for several hours (sometimes more than a day) and their thinking can be somewhat foggy.


    Some patients with NMH experience prolonged fatigue after a modest amount of physical activity, or after sustaining quiet activity like sitting at a desk. This fatigue after exertion or sustained activity can also last 24-72 hours, and can interfere with many daily activities.





    While fainting has been considered a classic symptom of NMH, we have found that many persons who develop NMH during tilt table testing do not faint in day-to-day life.

    Chronic fatigue, muscle aches (or myalgias), headaches, and mental confusion can be prominent symptoms of NMH in these individuals.

    The mental confusion takes the form of difficulty concentrating, staying on task, paying attention, remembering, or finding the right words.

    Some describe being in a "mental fog." Some develop worse fatigue after mentally demanding activities, such as reading and concentrating. This may occur because the blood vessels of the limbs dilate rather than constrict in response to mental tasks, allowing more blood to pool.




    In persons with POTS, a fast heart rate is a defining feature, and awareness of vigorous or skipped heart beats (palpitations) is common.

    In addition, patients can experience lightheadedness, intolerance of exercise, fatigue, visual blurring, weakness, imbalance, headaches, shakiness, clamminess, anxiety, shortness of breath, and the same type of mental fogginess that those with NMH describe.



    It has now been established that there is a substantial overlap between syndromes of orthostatic intolerance on the one hand, and either chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) or fibromyalgia (FM) on the other. It needs to be emphasized that not all those with NMH or POTS have CFS or FM, and not all with CFS or FM have NMH or POTS.



    ******** Here is where they tie this to low sodium *****



    One of the most common and treatable problems identified in those with NMH and POTS is a low salt (sodium) intake in the diet.

    Salt helps us retain fluid in the blood vessels, and helps maintain a healthy blood pressure.

    Salt has received bad press in the last couple of decades because a high salt diet in some individuals with high or high-normal blood pressure can lead to further increases in blood pressure, and thereby to heart disease and stroke.

    This has led to general health recommendations to "cut down on salt." As we are finding, this general recommendation isn't right for all people.






    In adults, an average blood pressure is 120/70. An adult's systolic blood pressure [the top number] is considered low if it is below 100, and it is considered elevated if it is above 140.

    An adult's diastolic blood pressure [the bottom number] is considered high if it is over 90. Normal values for BP in children and adolescents vary by age and weight. Individuals can have NMH at a wide range of resting blood pressures.

    It may be slightly more common in those whose systolic BP is in the 90-110 range. For individuals with NMH, a low salt intake may be unhealthy, and reducing sodium intake may move them from feeling good to developing the symptoms of fatigue and lightheadedness described earlier.

    In experimental work earlier this century, severe short-term salt depletion led to fatigue and mental dulling in the adult research participants.




    WOW the rest of the article gets into how to treat it with all kinds of great ideas. I'm short on time, so Im stopping here ...

    I noticed that they said allergies can cause this too.

    HTH ... marcia












    [This Message was Edited on 06/03/2008]
  9. marti_zavala

    marti_zavala Member

    Marti

    Thanks for replying. I'm glad you're doing this too. Or something similar. What do you mean when you say salty and sweet ? When I read that I remembered that honey roasted nuts or chicken nuggets with a sweet sauce used to make me feel better. I wonder why this is ...

    ***Yes honey roasted nuts, or potato chips and a couple of cookies. I have stopped this now as I have discovered that I am allergic to something in processed foods.

    I'll have to look for the glucose pills diabetics use although, I'm not good with pills normally. What are Cheney's no salt tablets ? I bought "No Salt" by Morton at Walmart but only tried it once. Other forms of potassium, like coconut water, seem to help me more.

    *** The glucose pills melt in your mouth. They are huge and very sweet and melty. I mis-typed. There are no Cheney No Salt tablets, I meant to say, Cheney's recipe of 1/8 tsp of No Salt and 1/8 tsp of Sea Salt. This gives the right proportion of sodium to potassium, I think 2:1.


    I'm going to look for some compression socks. Do you recommend any in particular ?

    *** No, I just bought what was a walmart and I LOVE them. I only wear them when I am going to be up for a while so they are a hassle to get on and off. But they are working so well fo rme. They were expensive but I will probably get a second pair.

    Do you have to lay down every few hours for an hour to regulate your blood pressure ? I can't seem to go without this yet. My BP after 2 minutes of standing is looking better though. I checked it for the first time in a few weeks yesterday and it didn't drop within the first hour. But, then I forgot to check it again ... I am thinking it may be activity related too though.

    *** Yes, I have a cheap ergonomic chair that I sit in most of the day. Then I put the socks on and do the salt/no salt drink then I get up to make dinner or lunch. I did find Thermotabs at WalMart (you have to ask for it at the pharmacy). It is not prescription but you have to ask for it. It was $6 something for 100 pills. I take this in my purse when I am out and about. I take 2 at a time with water.

    It's funny that we think getting to clean is a big deal. LOL ...

    *** Pitiful, really but it feels so good.

    Marti
  10. xchocoholic

    xchocoholic New Member

    Thanks for replying. I'll check Walmart for those socks today when I'm out. I'm not sure about the Thermotabs. I googled them once and I think there was something about them I didn't like the sounds of. Are they buffered ? I think that was it. I prefer my supplements to begin to work in my mouth.


    """It's funny that we think getting to clean is a big deal. LOL ...

    *** Pitiful, really but it feels so good.

    Marti """

    This made me chuckle .. thanks for the laugh. We are a pathetic, but lovable crew ... Marcia