Rich V K Prolonging impact of mb12

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Salix, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. Salix

    Salix New Member

    Hi Rich,

    I’m following a fuller Yasko, step 2 for months, and just recently have been having bouts of violent depression, which is only relieved by mb12. Within 10 minutes of taking it I start to feel the benefits, ½ hr later it’s hard to believe I ever had those feelings. Thing is in a few hours I feel the same again, unless I take another dose, which with everything else I do is getting financially tricky- I already take 12mg plus other b12s. I know you can’t give anything that appears to be medical advice but any general ideas what someone could do to prolong the relief/ impact of the mb12? Sometimes I react quickly but this is a bit crazy.

    Thanks Rich,
  2. Diva55

    Diva55 New Member

  3. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Salix.

    I empathize with you in how fast your body burns up B12.

    If a normal, healthy person who has been on a diet with sufficient vitamin B12 abruptly stops their intake of B12, it can take a year or more for them to show any symptoms or signs of B12 deficiency. The reason is that the body's B12 stores are normally protected very well by the formation of glutathionylcobalamin, and the B12 is recycled over and over, without much loss on a daily basis.

    In your case, and in other cases of CFS and autism, this is not true. That tells us that B12 is not being properly protected by glutathione, but is vulnerable to reaction with other substances, and in particular, toxins.

    The strategy in treating the methylation cycle block is to jump-start the methionine synthase enzyme by taking some 5-methyltetrahydrofolate, together with enough B12 to overwhelm the toxin reactions and leave some B12 left over to supply methylcobalamin to methionine synthase, to get the methylation cycle going again. When it gets going, it will restore the glutathione levels and get the detox system running, which in turn will start clearing the toxins out of the body.

    The problem is that if large quantities of toxins have accumulated while the person has been ill, it takes considerable time to get rid of them, once the detox system is functioning again. In the meantime, one has to keep the B12 concentration high enough so that there will be enough mehthylcobalamin available to keep methionine synthase going. Since B12 is water-soluble, the kidneys keep dumping it into the urine, and the toxins keep reacting with it as well. So a big daily intake of B12 is needed to overcome these competitors and keep the concentration up.

    This is a brute force approach, using the so-called Principle of Mass Action in chemistry. Unfortunately, I don't know of another way to do it. It should not be necessary to do this forever, though. Once the detox system has been able to work down the backlog of stored toxins, one should start to get "more bang for one's buck" from the B12 supplementation. And eventually, the lifetime of the B12 should become quite long, as in a normal, healthy person.

    The more one can help the detox system to get rid of the toxins, the sooner one should see this happen. I've posted about the book "The 7-Day Detox Miracle." This book gives advice about improving detox via the stools, the urine and the perspiration, which are the main excretion routes for toxins. The book has a catchy title, which I guess sells books, but I certainly don't want to imply that it will take only 7 days. The authors were basically addressing a relatively normal, healthy person who just needs to boost their detox a little, not a person with longstanding CFS, which is a horse of quite another color! Nevertheless, the principles they talk about for the most part should hold in CFS as well.

    I hope this helps.

    [This Message was Edited on 06/04/2008]
  4. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Rich,

    Now that I've thought about it a bit more, this seems to me an interesting topic.

    Do you think that the problem for PWC's (and others with similar detox problems) is just that we need more B12 than normal people because it's being used for more things?

    Or is it because there's something in our bodies that does not store B12 properly?

    I told my doctor that I thought that B12 cleared from my body within about two days, since I could stop the detox reaction from the methylation supplements that quickly just by stopping the B12.

    He interjected, "Sometimes it clears within a few hours." He's used to working with PWC's, and so apparently he's seen this before.

    On the other hand, the FolaPro recycles itself for weeks in my body. (elliespad's reports suggest that it kept recycling itself for months for her, though I don't know that for sure.)

    I suppose that if the B12 clears that quickly, it must mean that I'm short on B12 in general. However, I've never noticed that supplementing with it did anything for me other than (when combined with FolaPro) prompt detox. And maybe improve my golf swing (e.g. coordination).

    Certainly I don't think that's a contributing factor to any mood issues I might have.

    Not expecting you to have the answer....just pondering.

    Best, Lisa
  5. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, Lisa.

    I think the short lifetime of B12 in PWCs is caused fundamentally by glutathione depletion. When glutathione goes down, two relevant things in this context happen: B12 loses its protection in its normal storage form of glutathionylcobalamin, and toxins that would normally be taken out by glutathione are allowed to rise in concentration. This combination torpedoes the B12, and that's why it doesn't last very long in the body of someone who has CFS.

    I expect that as glutathione comes back up as a result of the methylation cycle block treatment and the toxins are taken out, the lifetime of B12 will increase to normal.

  6. tooks

    tooks Member

    Hi Rich,

    I think I've mentioned that I am trying to "save some B12 for cellular function" by nebulizing the hydrox form with a very small amount of reduced glutathione--just enough to make glutathionylcobalamin.

    Just as a general principle, do you think this might work? I am also taking the Perque. I do notice detox effects if I do it more than 2 or 3 times a week.

  7. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Thanks, Rich.

    So do you now think that supplementing with glutathione in some form (e.g. nebulized or IV) might be useful?

    The MetaMetrix IONS test suggested that I might be able to make more glutathione if I added ALA, glycine and NAC. I've been using the first two but am not sure how much benefit there's been.

    Now that I think about it, it seems to me that my desire for freshly juiced vegetables, fresh vegetable broth and fresh produce is a lot higher when I'm taking the methylation supplements (the folates and B12). My interest goes way down when I temporarily stop them. I've not been keeping track, but it's my recollection that this variation has been consistently correlated since I started the supplements about a year ago.

    I'm of the impression that produce supplies a lot of glutathione, and so perhaps this is my body's way of telling me that I need more glutathione during this time?

    This would explain why my husband has such a great desire for freshly juiced vegetables too. He doesn't seem to have CFS but is still recovering from mold poisoning (apparently because his weak liver wasn't able to handle all those toxins).

    That does suggest that perhaps he doesn't have the methylation problem (e.g. inability to convert folic acid to active folate) and that the limiting factor for him is the glutathione.

    The juice (and traditional chinese medicine herbs/acupuncture) are the only things that seem to have helped him at all.

    I now wonder whether he would benefit from B12 too. I think your comments suggest least if he's got enough glutathione in his body to use it.

    Maybe he'd benefit from glutathione IV's, therefore. Along with the magic Vitamin C ones, which still are working absolute wonders for me. (Meaning that my functioning goes up to 100% for a day or two after each one, if I'm not taking the folate/B12 combination. I get a big die-off reaction if I go above 25 cc/12.5 g with the Vitamin C though, suggesting that lyme/viruses/whatever still are present. Still, progress!)

    Of course, if my husband does need glutathione, I think that means one of the following:

    1) His body is using it to detoxify something other than mold poison. (I don't know what that would be though. He has some mercury fillings but otherwise doesn't seem to have been affected by any out-of-the ordinary toxic exposures at any time. His tolerance for medications and alcohol always has been very low and so he's never taken any of those. Presumably that low tolerance is because of poor liver function related to his Hepatitis B problem.)

    2) Mold toxin actually is removed from the body through the methylation/glutathione process. What is your current thought on this? What does Ritchie Shoemaker think?

    This is really interesting, even more so for my husband than for me. I'm actually doing better than he is at this point, though perhaps if we give him some Vitamin C (and maybe glutathione) in IV form that will change.

    Dr. Guyer thought the Vitamin C IV's would be helpful, and he's usually right about such things. I hope he's right this time.

    Another thing: Elisabeth was asking in another post why juicing might have helped her unrelenting fever. I can't remember what you said, but maybe this is related to the glutathione supplied by the juice? And if so, I wonder what she might be detoxifying.

    (Elisabeth had extremely severe mold problems a few years ago in her house, where she's still living. Apparently it was remediated fully, but even so mold poison remaining in her body could be a big problem for her. Of course, she had CFS before moving into the house and so she could be detoxifying something else if indeed that's why the juice is helping. I will note as an aside that my own temperature regulation got really out-of-whack during the last months that I was living in my house, and that it was one of the first things to repair itself once I moved out.)

    Back to the B12: about two weeks after I moved out of my house, I had a huge craving for the taste of sublingual B12 and took a whole bottle of methylcobalmin in one night. I think this was something like 150,000 mcg. Since then my desire for the taste of those tablets has been only moderate. I was getting ridiculous amounts of detox at the time....the stuff was coming out in my saliva.

    I used to think that B12 was not stored by the body at all, but after your comments am wondering if that little binge might not still be benefiting me.



    [This Message was Edited on 06/05/2008]
  8. Salix

    Salix New Member

    Okay that sounds likely, thanks Rich. So could it be that some parts of my methylation cycle are slotting in to place, kicking up more toxins, so my b12 need is greater. It's only a couple of months since I felt too much b12 was a strain on my kidneys. How things change! I've just taken a MAP etc so it will be intersting to see where MMA etc are.

    I'm taking some of the b12 doses with Nadh and all of them with some intrinsic (not Dr Amy's). Should these be helping. I'll also think about upping my glutathione.

    I've ordered the book you suggested too.

  9. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    That's another question I have.

    I keep getting the comment from various folks that all the Vitamin C that I take (30 g per day oral plus the IV's) may be straining my kidneys.

    I tend to think that if my body is using it all up (which seems to be the case if for no other reason than that my urine never is anything other than perfectly clear except for occasionally just after I've gotten an IV), the kidneys wouldn't be an issue.

    Anybody have any thoughts?

    Probably my CFS doctors would know the answer to this one. (I wouldn't count on regular doctors to know anything about vitamins, of course.) I'll ask at some point.

    [This Message was Edited on 06/05/2008]
  10. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    I believe one reason I may react so well to the supps, in terms of detoxing, is that for several years, I've been taking the undenatured whey (per Dr. Cheney to increase glutathione) and the methylcobalamin vitamin B-12, both sold here. Just adding the other three Yasko supps once in a while kicks me into detox mode for a few days and, usually, recycles and starts another detox round a few days later. I stay off the supps for a bit and start all over again. It's very difficult to schedule the supps because my work schedule changes every week in terms of days and hours. Still, I somehow manage to detox around my schedule.

    I am getting better, no doubt about it. I recovered from the flu quickly and I recover from working pretty quickly as well. I did have an FMS flare but it was caused by some hidden sals blocking the Guaifenesin. The sals are gone and so is the FMS pain and fatigue. If only CFIDS/ME were as easy for me to treat. Still, the MCP seems to be working as well now and it's just a matter of time to see how much better I can get. I'm hoping for glowing good health at some point. One thing I learned from the Guai Protocol is that these things demand commitment and patience. It took a long time for most of us to get sick and healing takes time as well.

    Thanks, Rich. We all owe you a huge debt of gratitude.

    Love, Mikie
  11. woofmom

    woofmom New Member

    Are you taking Manganese? It activates Vitamin C, biotin, B1, and choline.
  12. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    If I understand the theory correctly, the availability of unoxidised B12 is one of the factors that directly determines the rate of detox.

    I'm 15 months into this whole yasko/methylation thing, and I really want to experiment with upping my B12. I had a lot of what I assume was detox last year with moderate amounts fo B12 and the folates.

    One thing that is holding me back is money. I think I can persuade a doc to increase my Rx dosages, but all this stuff is out of pocket.

    I was thinking about getting some more tests done to show B!2 deficiency and then trying to persuade a doc/hemotologist to write my insurance and make a medical case that they shld pay for my B12.

    Only problem is most insurances tend to cover methyl B12 not hydroxy.

    Has anyone done this?

    Also, Rich, do u think there will ever come a point where PWCs can safely experiment with methyl B12? I"m guessing the answer is no cos none of the tests, challenge tests, or porphyrins or whatever, seem to yield a reliable idea of body burden of mercury?

  13. tooks

    tooks Member


    Interesting about the fresh juice. It has happened to me too. I bought a good juicer a couple of years ago but even 4 oz broght on heavy detox. Now when I want I snack I feel like chomping lots of carrots, apples, celery and I just have to have parsley and cilantro every day or I feel starved. And I am juicing quite a bit with no detox effect. I often add half a beet for the betaine and still don't get detox.

    I am taking the ALA (though I'm taking the R lipoic acid as it is supposed to be more bioavailable), 500 mg of NAC plus a lot of other supplements of the sort that many of us take and when I started this months before "the 5" I had a big increase in energy.

    Now I am very watchful about increasing the glutathione in the nebulizer, but maybe I should add a bit more and see how it goes. I use 4000 mg of Hydrox. I also take about 10 to 15 grams of undenatured whey each day along with ribose. Before starting the protocol my glutathione levels from both Vitamin Diagnostic and SpectraCell, were in the red zone, as was my total antioxidant function from SpectraCell and several vitamins and aminos, even though I had been supplementing with high doses of good quality vitamins for years.

    And Delia, where do you get your hydrox? I got mine from Key Pharmacy in Washington and one drop equals 2000mcg, so it goes a fairly long way. A 15 ml or so bottle was $50 something.

    As to the levels of Vit C, my previous doctor in NY used it a great deal and had really studied the doses etc. He waanted me to take 10 grams orally, which I couldn't manage at the time, and gave regular IV's of up to about 40 grams to many, though I couldn't take that much. He did not feel it was a problem for the kidneys. He treats CFS and Lyme.
  14. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Your recent flurry of posts prompted me to re-start substantial doses of both molybdenum and manganese. Are there other minerals that you think are really useful for us?

    Thanks for the information.

    Thanks to others on this thread for your comments, too!
  15. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    So Rich, based on what you say, would it make more sense to combine glut and B12 like susan is to ensure it's protected in teh body and therefore available for the purposes we need it for?

    [This Message was Edited on 06/05/2008]
  16. Salix

    Salix New Member

    This is just about me and my response to b12, but I get a positive response really quickly, instantaneously even.... hmmm not just the positive also sometimes detox... so it feels at least to start with as if my body does use some of it for good rather then it be taken out by toxins. Maybe something else in favour of the low and slow?? Still like the glut idea though
    [This Message was Edited on 06/05/2008]
  17. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, deliarose.

    I first heard about combining these in a nebulizer from Jim Seymour, a pharmacist with Key Pharmacy in Kent, WA. He was reporting at the MCS workshop near the San Francisco airport on Dr. Grace Ziem's protocol for multiple chemical sensitivity. She started by nebulizing each separately, based on Prof. Marty Pall's NO-ONOO theory as applied to MCS. Prof. Pall believes that the hydroxocobalamin benefit comes from its action in binding nitric oxide. The glutathione was used to counter oxidative stress, helping to lower peroxynitrite. According to Seymour, Dr. Ziem began mixing them together just for efficiency. It took less time to nebulize if they were put in together. However, she found that the effect of the treatment was better when they were mixed.

    I didn't understand this until I later saw papers showing that they react to form glutathionylcobalamin, and that this protects the B12 from reacting with toxins and being lost from the functions for which it is needed.

    I view this as a good idea for that reason. Also, I think the improvement upon mixing is evidence that it isn't the binding of NO that is the important function of hydroxocobalamin, but rather its conversion to methylcobalamin to support methionine synthase. This is something that Prof. Pall and I have different views about.

    As to the direct use of methylcobalamin by people with CFS, I would still shy away from that unless I was pretty sure that there wasn't a large body burden of inorganic mercury. I agree that it isn't easy to be sure about that with the available testing. I think that if you get a strong indication of elevated mercury from the chelator-provoked urine collection or from the urine porphryrins test, it's likely that the mercury is in fact there. On the other hand, if these tests come out low, I guess I would still wonder.

  18. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I used to think that mercury might not be a problem for me, but now I wonder.

    I got a Hepatitis B series of vaccines a year or two before I got sick, and a quick check makes it seem that those indeed have mercury in them at the time.

    I wonder if I should avoid NAC as well as methylcobalmin therefore.

  19. Salix

    Salix New Member

    Hi Rich and anyone else interested,

    Until recently I've been unable to find HB12 with additives I could tolerate. I was given a 100ml sample of additive free by a UK supplement company and my impression was that I respond differently, more there's something extra than the response to adenosyl and methyl. Anyway, I fed back to the person who sent me the sample and she replied that more seemed to respond to that than the other types they make. That intrigued me.

    Second thought, as I wasn't able to tolerate the CB12 or HB12 I reluctantly and very cautiously drizzeled methyl on to the back of my throat to avoid my main amalgum, also with intrinsic, nadh (hoping to recycle glutathione) and a few other cautions, which may have offered no protection whatsoever but made me feel better. Anyway, the instant it hit the back of my throat i felt the effects. So as the hydroxy converts to methyl and combined with my reactivity I decided to be very cautious with this too. And I have the same instantaneous response, more accurately it starts instantaeously and builds. So is some of it converting to methyl and adenosyl immediately or something else entirely is going on. Anyone any thoughts? Feeling confused.

    If anyone is interested in UK additive free hydroxy, will be available from Metabolics from next week. I can post the prices it anyone's interested, though it's very expensive compared to the Perque.

  20. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    Rich. ...thanks

    Salix.. interesting point about the preservative free hydroxy.