richvank: Glutathione Question + Mold/Methylation progress

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Slayadragon, Oct 15, 2008.

  1. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Rich,

    Wow, you've been busy posting on this board recently! I'm looking forward to reading through and catching up.

    I just got the results of my Genova DetoxiGenomics test. Following are the items that I had problems on:

    Phase I Detox problems:

    CYP1B1: involved in 4-hydxylation of estrogen
    CYP2C19: Detoxifies proton pump inhibitors and many anticonvulsants (e.g. valium)

    Phase II Detox problems:

    GSTP1 (l105V) and GSTP1 (A114V): detoxifies many water-soluble environmental toxins, including many solvents, herbicides, fungicides, lipid peroxides, and heavy metals (e.g. mercury, cadmium and lead). The various forms of GST work together to eliminate toxins. Decreased glutathione conjugation capacity may increase toxic burden and increase oxidative stress.

    There are two genes related to glutathione s-transferase (glutathione conjugation) through the skin and brain, and I have defects in both of them. This apparently means that I have problems detoxing a wide variety of "regular" (non-biotoxin) toxins. Dr. Guyer says he's never seen anyone with polymorphisms on both of these.

    Apparently one way to approach this is through the administration of plain glutathione. They tried adding 1000 mg to my usual Vitamin C iv, and indeed I got a big detox reaction.

    What I'm wondering is about the recommendation made to me last year on MetaMetrix's ION test is valid. It noted that my glutathione levels are low, and recommended glycine and ALA to help that. I didn't notice any increased detox reaction (though I did get a sulfur headache that I counterpunched with molybdenum).

    Do you think this genetic result means that my body can't convert these things to glutathione? It's pointless to keep taking them if it's not going to work.

    On a more general note:

    I continue to do extremely well with mold avoidance. Erik Johnson (erikmoldwarrior) was kind enough to let me go to Lake Tahoe to visit and shared his many mold avoidance "tricks" with me. Insofar as I can get really away from mold (as was the case with Erik), I function at 100%+ in every respect. Back in Chicago, I've lost a little bit of the edge (my cognitive is not as sharp as I would like), but I'm still doing extremely well.

    I've yet to hear of another CFS patient who has recovered to this extent, though some of the other people doing mold avoidance (Erik, Khaly, Josh/545) have gotten huge gains also. I never thought that I'd get to this point, and so it's kind of like a miracle.

    However, the more that I think about this, the more that I believe that detoxification of other types of non-biotoxins ("regular toxins") is going to be key for me if I'm to reduce my mycotoxin sensitivity or even remain at my current level. That will give me more options in the future, which is always a good thing.

    My current belief is that the biotoxins and regular toxins are tied together in terms of the total "toxic load" that the body can comfortably handle. Up to a certain point, toxins are stored in relatively safe places, including fat cells. Sticking toxins in fat cells isn't optimal either (since it creates hormonal problems and may lead to weight problems), but it's better than putting them most places.

    When the body runs out of "safe" places to sequester toxins, they start to do more damage. It's my belief that "loose" biotoxins are especially damaging, and that that's why the overly toxic body flips out (complement/C4a spikes) when even minute amounts of new toxin is introduced. ("Minute" meaning at the particle level, such as that absorbed by a piece of clothing that has passed briefly through an even moderately contaminated space.)

    If indeed that's the case, reducing the amounts of all toxins in the body (not just biotoxins) may be helpful for me. Insofar as the other stuff (heavy metals, chemicals, etc.) can be detoxified, my body should have more room to sequester the biotoxins. And (this is the $64,000 question) perhaps once my body becomes less afraid of additional biotoxins, my hyperreactivity to the mold poison will decrease.

    The most hopeful news I've had is that both Dr. Guyer and (I've got this one second-hand) Dr. Shoemaker have seen patients' mycotoxin sensitivity go down as a result of chelation. My other doctors, Keith Berndtson (moving towards specializing in toxicity in the treatment of CFS, FM, Syndrome X and other things) and Mary Beth Short-Ray (specializing in mold toxicity but broadening her approach to other toxins) agree that this concept has merit.

    I think that my problem with "regular" toxins has to be related to my mycotoxin sensitivity. It's too coincidental that so many CFS patients have such extreme reactions to FolaPro and (I'm increasingly convinced) have undiagnosed mycotoxin reactivity.

    It thus seems to me from a logic point of view that continuing to support general detox should be helpful to me in terms of improving my long-term well-being....insofar as I also address the mycotoxin issue in an "extreme avoidance" way. (Not doing the extreme avoidance as a baseline treatment would not allow any progress whatsoever to be made by targeting the other toxins, I feel sure. The body that is in hyperactive mode as a result of a perceived onslaught of mycotoxins is not going to be in the position to effectively release and detox much of anything, I suspect.)

    Currently I find that the following give me huge detox reactions all of the same sort:

    * Increased dosages of FolaPro (I currently take 1/2 pill of FolaPro and 1/2 pill IntrinsiB12/Folate per day)
    * IV Chelation (This was with just 5 mg of EDTA, and I did get big excretions of mercury, lead and aluminum. Dr. G said he expected that a normal dose and/or the use of DMPS would have resulted in much higher metals excretion, especially of mercury. I'm glad that I didn't do that....the detox symptoms were intense enough as it was)
    * IV glutathione
    * Brown seaweed (Limu of Modifilan) (This stuff really has something to it. It's the only thing other than above that's given me that sort of effect.)

    Note that this detox reaction is totally unlike what I get when detoxing mycotoxins. And I'll tell you.....I'd much rather go after the regular toxins. Going after the biotoxins is hell on earth, and apparently it doesn't work very well for us anyway.

    I am unconvinced that I'd be getting any detox from the chelation, glutathione or brown seaweed were I not taking the FolaPro and B12, by the way. That seems necessary to set everything in motion.

    I just wish that I knew how much the methylation (which I've been supporting for 16 months) is contributing to my improved wellness. I got no positive effects at all during the first five months, which makes sense since the power of the mycotoxins during 2007 knocked everything else out.

    It's quite possible that the reason I'm doing so well at present is because I've been decreasing my overall non-biotoxin burden though. Erik and Khaly both have gotten tremendous gains as a result of extreme mold avoidance, but (insofar as I do follow it) I'm doing even better. Perhaps this is just because I started out less ill than they did, but it's conceivable that the methylation support has been key.

    (I'd really like to see what would happen if Erik were to try the methylation support, since he's stabilized enough with the mold avoidance that an improvement would be really obvious. I'm gradually trying to convince him....wish me luck!)

    I've decided to spend the next several months trying to seek out really clear (mycotoxin-free and hopefully chemical-free) areas in which to detox aggressively during the next several months. It will be interesting to see how much more progress I can make. Hopefully I will eventually get to the point where I can stay 100% well while living a vaguely normal life in civilization, but we shall see. If this is all I ever get, I'll take it!

    As always, thanks much for all your help.

    Best, Lisa


    As noted above, I've convinced my Chicago doctor that he would do well to refocus his practice on toxicity issues. After several months of discussions, he seems prepared to do that and thus is trying to get up to speed. I've given him some of your work (and think I will loan him Dick Deth's book), and he said he'd like to talk with you at some point when you have a chance.

    His name is Dr. Keith Berndtson, with an office in Park Ridge, Illinois. The Panera we visited while you were in town is about a block from his office.

    [This Message was Edited on 10/15/2008]
  2. acer2000

    acer2000 New Member


    Instead of doing IV chelation, you might want to check out Andy Cutlers low dose DMSA/ALA protocol. I looked into chelation about a year ago, and there seemed to be much less in the way of negative effects to this protocol than to IV chelation.

    He has a website at:

    His book is very interesting.. I am not affiliated with him at all, but I hung out on the yahoo autism-mercury and frequent-dose-chelation lists long enough to see lots of people post about adverse effects of sporadic dose oral chelation or IV chelation.