Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by freida, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. freida

    freida Active Member

    HI all,

    The 2nd page of the topic titled
    "Melatonin questions, please"
    has some excellent posts,
    I read them all,
    thank you!
    And that entire thread has very good info on sleep aids, worthwile reading!

    However, it is so long now, that I think I'd better start this new one, on related subjects.

    I'm especially thankful for the 2nd page replies, there,
    from Mary, Sheryl, and LadyCarol.

    I'm sorry to say this,
    but I want mostly, right now,

    for Sheryl,
    and anyone else considering Seriphos,
    to be aware that I had a bad experience with it, last night. :(

    That does not mean that it might not be great help for some people,
    and I have not decided whether I will try it again,
    at some point, or if it is just not right for me,

    but sadly, I was very disappointed with my own result,
    from trying it for the very first time.

    I ususally do not give up on something without a fair long trial,
    but this was so bad,
    that I will have to consider and decide that,
    later on, once I have recuperated.

    Just want you all to know,
    that it may be excellent for many people!

    But do be very careful with it,
    try the small dose first,
    since maybe it does not agree with all of our needs.

    I had some hopes built up for it,
    it seemed to match my needs,
    but now I don't know.

    ANyway, I took just 1 capsule, @ 6:15p.m.,
    30 minutes before my supper/last meal of the day.
    I had numerous reactions, headache, odd sensations, and then groggyness in many ways,

    was a bit nervous then, but still felt the benefits might outweigh those, if I could calm better and sleep better,
    it did feel like it would induce sleep,
    I had a much worse night than any of my usuals. :(
    Was all very difficult,
    and also , disappointing.

    I did get to sleep, but woke up the first time, sooner than usual, instead of later, as I'd hoped,

    And, during the night, I had even more wake-up's than usual, and had way more terrible dreams, also.
    In every single dream, I was extremely depressed, as well as awful things happenned in those dreams, and it was very depressing.
    When awake, I had hard time walking to bathroom without falling,
    And emotionally felt shocked and very depressed.

    Yikes, I just wanted Sheryl,
    to not increase her dose, unless she's sure she can,
    and I want everyone to know to be careful.

    I don't know if I will try it again, but not tonight!

    I am going to try to get back to where I was, before I tried it,
    before even thinking of whether or not, to try it at a lower dose,
    by openning the capsule, and taking only part.

    Maybe it just isn't right for me.

    Maybe it will help others a lot, as it has helped some, I know!

    I would be willing to accept side effects, if it had helped my sleep in any way,
    but it didn't, and the effects were very significant and very difficult to recover from.

    SOrry to share the bad news,
    but I want everyone to remain informed,
    and make your own careful educated guesses,
    about if you try it,
    and how much.

    Meanwhile, I will work on recovering, today,
    and probably not try anything new, tonight.

    I did get other things to try, for adding to my nightime sleep aids,

    but not so fast.

    I still thank all of you,!!
    who gave such good ideas and info and answers to questions,
    on that previous thread,
    which I highly recommend to others,
    about melatonin and other sleep aids.

    Take care all,

    I Hope to see replies,especially so I will know Sheryl and others saw my experience,
    even though I hope yours will be different and better.

    [This Message was Edited on 04/06/2013]
  2. sunflowergirl

    sunflowergirl Active Member

    I think we're all different, our bodies react differently from others, so what one can take it might not be right for another person. It sounds like it was "over the top" too strong for you. Can you cut it way down?

    In my continuing quest for SLEEP, I've cut out CAFFEINE! That's hard since I love a venti starbucks, extra bold. Decaf just doesn't even taste like coffee. I also cut out the wine with dinner because of sugar. Unstable blood sugar will give problems with sleep. And of course nothing that resembles dessert. Also trying to remember not to eat anything white.......that's potatoes, rice, and pasta. Never liked white bread.

    Last night I took only 1 capsule of lemon balm and a sublingual melatonin. To my surprise I woke 6 hrs. later, stumbled to the kitchen to heat up all my rice socks, and slept another 3 hrs.
    [This Message was Edited on 04/06/2013]
  3. mbofov

    mbofov Member

    Leah - when I first took Seriphos, I was told to take it in the evening, and I had a very bad experience with it taking it at night. I had a worse night than ususal (it's been many years, a little hard to remember), but I know it made me feel awful and I didn't like it all.

    And somehow I decided to try it in the morning and had a completely different experience, no bad effects at all. And it calmed me and helped with sleep at night.

    So that may be what happened to you. I think it would be good to give it just one more try, try a small dose in the morning, on an empty stomach, and see what happens. I'd hate to see someone write off Seriphos without trying it this way.

    I have read that it's important to take it in the morning due to our natural cortisol levels rising and falling.

  4. freida

    freida Active Member

    I'm doing somewhat better, as the day goes on.

    Thank you both, for your replies and ideas!

    Mary, I will consider your suggestion.
    Can't decide on it, today, still shell-shocked,
    but I will think about it,
    whether to try it again or not,
    at a much reduced quantity,
    and whether to try it in morning, as you do.
    My adrenal fnctn/cortisol is so low during the daytime, I just don't know about that.
    But maybe, as you say, if it helped me overall.

    Sunflower, thank you for your interest and ideas, too.

    I found it very helpful, when I waas reducing my caffeine,
    to replace some of it, with water,
    and some of it with a hot grain beverage.
    The one I like is called Inka.
    It's not like coffee, but I do like it,
    so it helped me to cut out the caffeine.

    I do the dietary things yu mentioned, which are very good reminders for everyone.

    Thanks again, to each of you!!

  5. ameilie73

    ameilie73 Member

    I just had a good right ole chuckle at the image of you stumbling to the kitchen to heat your rice socks, because i can so identify, "bless us all who stumble about during the night to the to heat our rice socks!"

    Its the little things for me that capture the imagination.

  6. mbofov

    mbofov Member

    Leah - did you ever have the adrenal stress index test - the saliva test which uses 4 samples from the day/evening? Because I believe that Seriphos will only help with sleep if someone has high cortisol at night. Elevated cortisol at night causes insomnia, sometimes severe. So if your cortisol levels are never elevated, then Seriphos is not right for you. I think it's best if at all possible that people have this test done before taking Seriphos.

    The ASI test indicated high evening cortisol levels for me (I forget what they were in the morning) and I had to take 8 capsules a day for several months but then started to get extra tired - it was lowering my cortisol too much - so I cut my dose. So if someone has low cortisol all the time, I don't think they should take Seriphos.

    Have you ever tried adrenal glandulars for your adrenal glands? My adrenal glands were very weak at one time, causing severe fatigue, and Drenatrophin PMG by Standard Process helped me so much. It was my chiropractor who got me taking it, and my energy picked up within a couple of days. I had to take about 3 or 4 times the regular dose for a couple of weeks, my adrenals were so weak, and I had to take for several months.

    So I did have weak adrenals but also high cortisol at night.

  7. freida

    freida Active Member

    you got me to smile there , too,
    which is always welcome! :)
    Loved the blessing for all of us ;)
    and also your final line is so fitting for me, too! :)


    thanks so very much,
    for ALL that you are sharing with me.
    I highly appreciate it!!

    Before I answer your questions,
    I wanted to ask you, Mary,
    do you think that the glycine is more effective on an empty stomach, like the 5-htp is, or do you think it doesn't matter with the glycine?

    I know it is not harmful, to take an amino acid with food, but it often is less effective medicinally, like when we are trying for an effect.

    I remember that you said you take the glycine, 2 hours before bedtime,
    but if I do that, it will be too close to my having had supper.
    So I need to figure out the best time to try it, and what to adjust.
    Which I can do better, when I hear your opinion about whether the goal is to get the glycine on as empty a stomach as possible.
    And then, would an hour after a light vegetarian meal be sufficient, in your experience?
    If it really is more useful on empty stomach, if I can't get supper any earlier, I will take the glycine at my first time I get up for bathroom, later in evening, probably. And it could help me with the second half of the night.

    I am thinking I will probably try the glycine caps next, which I have purchased,
    and wait a while before trying to convince myself to try the Seriphos again, if I can convince myself. It was a very extreme reaction I had.

    I did have that exact saliva test, you mention, and I highly recommend it to others, which showed, the best I remember, that mine was low in the mornings and mid-day, started rising in the evening and first half of night. (even though I was very exhausted then, I was aggitated and restless.)

    So that's why I thought the Seriphos might help me, especially taken in early evening.

    But overall, I'm not sure, I might have been on the low end, all 24 hours, I cannot remember for sure, and not up to looking for those test results, and I had it a long while back. It probably would be optimal to re-do it, more recent I've thought, but I have not made that decision to do that, as of now.

    If my adrenals are involved significantly in my illnesses, then they are too low. My daytimes are like half-nightimes.
    I worked very hard to change back to doing most of my sleeping at night, despite difficulties, and most of my waking during the day. My circadian rythm seems to be very poor, since I originally got ill, nearing 20 yrs ago. Things other than adreanl are likely involved, as well.

    But yes, maybe my cortisol levels are too low all of the time, I'm not certain. I know I get more aggitation and sleep interruptions, at night, and I did have the test that showed the timing was not right, that they were going up instead of down, in evening and night, then down by morning.

    I tried some other adrenal support products, too long ago to remember which ones, without any noticeable difference, and I can't remember if I had ill effects from them.
    I don't recall the name of the specific one you named, though. I'll write it down, for future consideration. Thank YOU!!!!!

    I also have now purchased, melatonin, and tryptophan, to try, at some point,
    but one thing at a time, for now, even if they work better in combo, later on.

    Thanks agian to everyone,
    for all ideas and input!!


    [This Message was Edited on 04/07/2013]
  8. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    Leah, which version & strength of melatonin have you purchased ?

    Reason I ask is because I've just started trialling Melatonin Liquid sublingual 1 mg. Last night I took around 0.75 mg just before actually getting into bed. Prior to that I took Lemon Balm 500 mg about 20 mins earlier, nothing else.

    The combination gave me the best nights sleep I've had in a long time. What's more the horrible thumping pressure heads I've been getting in recent weeks have gone. The first time I have actually felt anything close to feeling normal in many months.
  9. SherylS

    SherylS Member

    So sorry this didn't work for you. We are always so hopeful when we try new things and then so disappointed when they don't work for us.

    I took the whole capsule one night and it also made me feel odd and didn't sleep as well. The 1/2 capsule seemed better. But after several days, it gave me heartburn, so have stopped for now. I may try it every other night. I was also taking 1mg sublingual melatonin with it. Not sure if the melatonin does anything for me. So the research continues!
    can't imagine what 8 capsules of Seriphos would o to me!!!

    [This Message was Edited on 04/07/2013]
  10. mbofov

    mbofov Member

    I'm not an expert, but I think it'd be fine to take the glycine an hour after a light meal or just an hour or so before bed. Just experiment and see what works best for you.

    I have a "cocktail" of stuff I take about 8:00 every night, including melatonin, l-theanine, glycine, 5-htp and magnesium (I take calcium with dinner), and usually am ready to sleep by around 10:00. For someone else, an hour before bed might be fine. We're all different.

    I think the important thing is to just not take the amino acids with meals.

    Let us know how it goes!

    Best wishes,

  11. freida

    freida Active Member

    yes, thank you for that understanding.
    I had some hope and was very disappointed.

    Very good to hear about what and how you are doing. Keep us posted. :)

    ANd LadyCarol,
    thanks for that great input!
    I will not rule out purchasing that sublingual liquid, if I need something else to try, after I try the things I've gotten.
    Let us know how that ocntinues to work for you too!

    I got 2 types of melatonin, one is capsules,
    the other is a lotion/cream for the skin, with 3mg per full pump of it. I have enjoyed using the same type cream base, shea butter, that has vit d3, in the mornings.
    It can be pumped out partially, so I don't need to use the full pump, to try it at first, to judge how much has what effect.

    I have not tried either of them, yet.

    Very glad you had good results, Carol!

    And I'm very glad for the interactions with all of you!

    Thank you !

    P.S. Mary, I had not seen your post. Thanks for your ideas. Seem logical to me too. Thank you so much!

    [This Message was Edited on 04/07/2013]
  12. ... I'm so very sory to hear what you went through last night :-( I had the exact same experience you did... so I'm not doing very well today. Except, I didn't try Seriphos as you did... so its a mystery to me :-( With the exception of complete insomnia, last night was one of my worse nights sleeps ever... waking up frequently and having all kinds of bad and upsetting dreams... it takes a toll on our already weakened bodies, I know. So my heart goes out to you, Leah!

    I didn't chime in on your melatonin thread because I still struggle with sleep myself, so didn't think I could really help on this subject.

    I do take 5 mg of a quick dissolve melatonin that my husband gets from Walmart... I've been on that for years now, along with magnesium glycinate and a sleep supp from my healthfood store which has a combination of things in it.

    Not really sure if the melatonin is helping or not... but I've taken it so long that I'm afraid to stop taking it since I 'm sure my body no longer produces melatonin as a result of me taking the melatonin supp for so long...

    But perhaps I should try to get the sublingual type that some have mentioned... maybe I would get a better effect from the sublingual... I don't know...

    I'm just so sorry you are struggling with sleep issues too and had such a bad time of it last night :-( Sleep is soooo crucial to us and yet seems to evade so many of us :-(

    I have noticed that my sleep is worse if I've spent too much time on the computer, especially after dark. I think the light from the screen, and perhaps even the electromagnetic field that electronics produce, interferes with our circadian rythm...which messes up our sleep. So I guess I need to try NO electronics after sundown, and see if that helps... I'll let you know.

    I am hoping you can get much better sleep tonight, Leah! And with SWEET dreams :) I'm praying for you... God bless you!

    Blessings and Gentle Hugs,
  13. freida

    freida Active Member

    Very nice post, Shel, thank you so much for it.

    I'm sorry you had such a bad night too.
    And have the ongoing troubles with them.
    You are right, it is so debilitating and upsetting and discourageing, and bad for all of our other issues. Ugh.

    I have often found a big difference in taking a different brand, even, and/or a different form of something.
    So I would encourage you to try other brands and forms of the melatonin.
    Quality does matter, like in foods and vitamins, and form can determine how much is actually bioavailable, or gets to where we need it to!

    Also, you might consider trying the glycine capsules. They are an amino acid, which is rarely reacted to. And it can go with what you already do. Might help.
    Of course, I don't know. I am hoping for you, what you hope for me! :)

    I agree toatlaay that it matters what we do, all of the nonmedicianal and non-supplements, that effect our sleep.
    I am always working on those too.
    I gradually turn lights off, after it gets dark outdoors.
    I try to focus on relaxing topics in evenings, I make the bedroom dark, dark. I do a series of habitually repeated things before going to bed, each day, and once in bed. This is supposed to help signal to the brain, it is time to relax and rest and shut off! ;)

    NOthing works totally,
    but some of it helps somewhat, sometimes!
    Which is, sometimes, better than nothing. ;)

    It is still a struggle.

    Thank you for your caring.
    Mine goes back to you!


    P.S. Chime in anytime. You don't need to know anything. LOL
    It is good to have the company and support and less isolation feeling!!

    [This Message was Edited on 04/07/2013]
  14. sunflowergirl

    sunflowergirl Active Member

    Two nights ago I got almost 8 hrs. with just lemon balm and melatonin. I hit the bed at 8:30 with the same pills, read a little and found I was falling asleep with the book in hand, so I turned out the light at 9:30. Come midnight, just like clockwork with me, I wake up and then can't go back to sleep. I took l peaceful nights, and l/2 sublingual melatonin, but was awake for 3 l/2 more hrs. and after that waking up every 30 min. until I gave in at 8:00 and got up.

    I'm looking like a racoon with dark circles under my eyes, and feeling like a being very, very cranky.

    I see the integrative doctor on friday and going to ask for another cortisol test and ask her what can be done for my insomnia.
  15. freida

    freida Active Member

    Glad you chimed in too, Sunflower.

    SOrry you are having such awful sleep problems, too!!

    I have had many nights like you described , and it is terrible, and does not help ANY of our other conditions, or our ability to cope.!

    Someone mentioned nightmares, too, which I also suffer from. :(

    SUnflower, try to ask for the 24-hour saliva test for the cortisol, which would show how it varies during that time period.
    It's easy to do, ! and much more informative,!

    than the single blood test, most drs order,
    which will only tell you what the level was, that one moment in time.

    COrtisol is supposed to differ in a certain way, morning, afternoon, evening, and middle of night.

    Seeing when yours goes up or down, will be a lot more meaningful. One can get a kit by mail, and send it back to a lab.


    P.S. I forgot to add, how I am doing,

    last night I tried the glycine capsule for the first time, it was 2 nights since I had the bad experience trying the Seriphos.
    I took just one 500mg cap of glycine, last night, with my basic other supplements for sleep,

    and I had another terrible night, complete with very depressed dreaming. :(

    I am thinking that the depression I have been struggling with, which worsened my sleep,
    makes me very susceptible to dropping even lower, when I take anything to help my sleep, since they all send us a bit down, to induce the sleep. Except for theonine. And 5-htp.

    So I guess, I have to be extremely careful with anything for sleeping, right now, and hope the depression lifts a little, soon, so I could get any tiny bit better sleep , without heading any more downward. It's a very careful balance, it seems.

    ANyone else's experiences similar?

    [This Message was Edited on 04/08/2013]
  16. sunflowergirl

    sunflowergirl Active Member

    when I was younger I could fall asleep anywhere, now that's all I seem to plan is when I can go to sleep! My life has become very small.

    Last night I took 1 lemon balm and half of a sublingual melatonin.....I think I woke around midnight, having read until l0 PM. I RESISTED getting up to heat up a rice sock and went back to sleep until 5 a.m. Also I'm drinking a cup of sleepy time tea with the valerian in it. What a happy surprise! I've decided to back off everything I take except magnesium for a couple of weeks. Think I need to clear my body of too much stuff. Also being very careful of when to stop drinking coffee during the day. Everywhere I read is not past 4 PM. Everything I've read is that you have to prepare for sleep with always going to bed at the same time, no TV or computer for at least an hr. before bed, a cool restful bedroom. I tossed my cats out at night a few years ago. My husband sleeps down the hall. If I wake past 2 a.m. I put in earplugs.

    My daughter and son in law both had the brain scans from Dr. Daniel Amen's clinic (you may have read his books or seen him on PBS) They were both put on gabapentin for racing brains and depression, plus she takes SAMe, 5 HTP, and vitamins.

    I didn't want an RX so have taken plain GABA 700 mg during the day to calm me down and also at night, and have also taken the 5 HTP. Both of these are to help with anxiety and depression as does the SAMe.

    Yes, that's the cortisol test I had almost 3 years ago. At that time it showed everything was normal with the cortisol, but had estrogen dominance. All hormones out of balance can mess up your sleep.
  17. LadyCarol

    LadyCarol Member

    I've heard some very bad reports about people taking Seriphos, personally I wouldn't touch the stuff.

    sunflower, you appear to have rather poor sleep hygiene. Is there really a need to go to bed at 8.30pm ? Assuming you were able to get 8 hours sleep you would be awake by around 4.30am which is not a normal time to wake up.

    Also you say you read in bed, that's not a good idea, reading acts as a stimulus, and even if you feel it helps make you tired your brain has been stimulated and is more likely to result in waking after you fall to sleep. It's also very bad practice to get up during the night and cook stuff, yet again this results in waking the brain/body and interrupts the natural body clock cycle.

    Also try using the ear plugs all night long, they help prevent small/medium noise from waking us up and it's easier to fall asleep.

    It's better to only use your bedroom for sleep only; any reading, TV, etc. is done in other rooms in the home. This trains a person to associate the bedroom with sleep.

    Regarding drinking coffee and/or caffeine drinks. It takes between 8 to 10 hours before 75% of the caffeine is eliminated from the body, longer with food in the stomach. That still leave 25% left in the body which can be enough to cause insomnia.

    I can totally relate to those dark circles under my eyes, I get them as well during poor sleep cycles, plus other horrible stuff.

    Leah, I'm sticking with the trial of Melatonin Liquid sublingual. I need a few weeks at least before I expect to see consistent benefits if it does indeed help. At the moment it is putting me to sleep quickly, I woke up a lot during last night and felt tired this morning, I improved by the afternoon. I may have to try a slow release form of Melatonin for more sustained sleep but I'll make that judgement if the quick acting Liquid sublingual doesn't help enough.

    I have chronic insomnia, the exact nature of it is not possible to ascertain, I have too many adverse health issues going on. I'm focusing on Serotonin/Melatonin Deficiency, that's the closest all the medical professionals have been able to come up with, anything else is conjecture. I'm focusing on these deficiencies rather than trying quick fixes such as the many "alleged" sleep aids on the market.

    It's not straightforward assessing Melatonin as I've recently started taking Thyroxin, I'll know more once I get some blood test results to see how things are going on the inside.[This Message was Edited on 04/08/2013]
  18. mbofov

    mbofov Member

    I'm so sorry you had a bad experience with the glycine too! That's too bad, it works really well for me ... we are all so different!

    Did you try the l-theanine and 5-htp? 5-htp can help with depression by raising serotonin levels. But I'm almost afraid to suggest anything for you now! :)

    I hope you sleep better tonight -


  19. sunflowergirl

    sunflowergirl Active Member

    because there was NOTHING I wanted to watch on TV. What else do you do except read. I actually turn the light off around l0 PM but I figured I was so sleep deprived if I fell asleep at 8:45 then good for me. I used to be in a habit of sleep by l0 PM wake at 6:00 and listen to the radio for about an hr. before getting up. Since I had the bad flu back in Dec. I'm all messed up with my sleeping.

    I'm assuming you don't have much pain otherwise you would understand about heating up rice socks or getting an ice pack......when you're in bad pain it's impossible to sleep.
    [This Message was Edited on 04/08/2013]
  20. ameilie73

    ameilie73 Member

    Think theres been a misunderstanding, Rice socks are equivalent to our wheat/ lavendar bags, they are put in the microwave to heat up so you can rest them on painful aching muscles, i wouldnt be without mine.

    I hope that makes things clearer

    [This Message was Edited on 04/09/2013]