Spit Test, Yeast, and A Gathering Of Opinions?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by pat460, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    Okay, first let me say that I don't mean to offend anyone with this post nor do I mean to stir up any controversy on the board. This is for my own confused mind and personal use. I am seriously interested in ALL kinds of replies!

    That being said, I'm probably not the only one who isn't quite sure if this whole yeast thing is legit. I've seen a lot of info(from web searches)on the pro side. It's all very convincing. I even did the spit test which was positive. I asked my mom to do it as well because she has had recurrent yeast infections and shingles which not only lasted years, but itched every time she ate a bite of anything sweet. Her spit test sank to the bottom and then floated back to the top. Not sure WHAT that means!(acrobatic spit? LOL) But she did tell me that most of those symptoms have disappeared since she's been on Neurontin.


    Anyway, as I said, I found plenty of info on the pro side. Articles on the con side however, seem to be a little tougher to find. This thing is said to be controversial and some doctors say it's hogwash, so why aren't they screaming at the top of their lungs to debunk it? Hence my appeal to you guys! Since I like to hear both sides of the story before I jump in head first, I am appealing to you all--if you believe in candida overgrowth resulting in all of those symptoms they list, tell me why you think this theory is correct. If however, you feel this whole yeast thing is just a red herring, so to speak, in relation to fibromyalgia then tell me what convinces you of that theory.

    Here's the thing, the list of symptoms for candida overgrowth is very very similar to fibromyalgia. Also, since we have some yeast in our body anyway, why wouldn't everyone's spit test be positive? Or IS everyone's test positive? How does the amount of yeast change the flotation capability of your spit? Also, I'm not real sure about that whole herxing thing. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And too, I used to get yeast infections but haven't had one in probably a couple of years(although I do frequently get ovarian cysts which painfully rupture then go away on their own). If I have overgrowth wouldn't I still be having frequent infections?

    I sincerely appreciate any replies as I find myself stuck on the fence. Like everyone here I want to get better. But, I don't want to spend my money and/or energy(both of which I have too little)on something that will only get my hopes up(again)for nothing.

    Thanks in advance to all of you as I know you won't let me down. You are some of the most caring and intelligent people I have ever had the pleasure to associate with, that's why I come here for answers!
    Pat

    P.S. I realize it takes a lot out of you to post your answer and if you don't feel up to it I understand but, please don't post a reply to just tell me to do a search. That is a very frustrating suggestion for me. I'm interested in your personal current opinions. Thanks again.
    [This Message was Edited on 04/13/2007]
  2. Lichu3

    Lichu3 New Member

    I have CFS, not fibromyalgia.

    I have some degree of skepticism like yourself. I have a background in medical research and part of my training was learning how to spot holes/ pitfalls in research.

    When people say "yeast" on this board, are they referring only to Candida Albicans because there other types of candida as well.

    I'm not sure either of the origination or testing behind the spit test. You bring up many interesting points. Has the spit test been tried on people with lab proven candida infections, for example, people with candida in their blood (these are usually people hospitalized in the intensive care unit) or even people with vaginal/ oral/ skin yeast infections? Has it been tried on healthy people? It would certainly help if the spit test results were different between people sick with a yeast infection vs. healthy people.

    Have people been helped much by taking antifungals or other anti-yeast measures? Although some have posted here about getting better by treating their yeast, I'm not convinced enough by the degree of improvement I've read. And then I've read about people who tried many, many things including treating yeast and yet they've not improved at all. Have there been any clinical trials where they treated yeast in one group and not another and the treated group clearly showed improvement?

    Some yeast overgrowth questionnaires have so many questions that could be answered "yes" by most people that by their criteria, probably almost everyone would have yeast overgrowth.

    I would definitely be skeptical of people who espoused a theory at the same time they are trying to sell you something.

    That all being said, if what you plan on trying is inexpensive and has minimal side effects (e.g. avoiding sugar, alcohol; taking garlic,etc. ), then a short-term therapeutic trial might not hurt.

    With CFS and FM, since there are no well-proven causes, I am as guilty as others of having my own theories about causes. The emotional side of me really finds to find a cause to cling to but the rational side of me has to step in every so often and examine the evidence as objectively as possible.


    [This Message was Edited on 04/13/2007]
    [This Message was Edited on 04/13/2007]
  3. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    Come on everyone, throw your 2 cents in! I know there are some more opinions out there!

    lichu; It seems we think very much alike on this one! You made some very thought provoking points and I hope we get many more replies that touch upon those points. Clinical trials seem scarce on this subject. Thanks much for replying! I always look forward to your posts. I do enjoy them!

    stormyske; I was hoping you would answer my post and I thank you for it! But I did want to ask you something--you've been doing other very healthy things as well, why are you convinced that treating yeast overgrowth was what helped you and not something else you tried or do you attribute your remission to the list on the road to remission post as well? I really appreciate you taking the time to help me in my mission to understand this yeast thing!

    To everyone else; My MIL, SIL, and niece were here 6 hours today(yeah! 6 hours and dinner!)and my MIL never ever stops talking--she will even follow me to the bathroom and converse through the door! Anyhoo, I'm wiped out so I will check on this thread tomorrow to read and answer your replies. Thanks, Pat
  4. desertlass

    desertlass New Member

    Nofool-- thank you for writing about your experience. That helps me to understand your posts better. Changing your diet back in 1979 must have been a lonely time, as not many would have been supporting you, I'm only guessing. You didn't have the benefit of all that was learned about diet since then that has become more mainstream. You also didn't get any triumphant moment from it, as might have been promised.

    Regarding yeast:

    I don't have strong opinions formed on this. All I can offer is what happened, and how it made me feel, which is: horribly confused.

    I treated yeast BEFORE I got my worst blast of CFS, so that's why I am not as vigilant about it as I used to be. I never had proof postive that I had a yeast imbalance to begin with. My husband is as healthy as a horse and his spit test sank. If he has an overgrowth of yeast, I want to know what kind it is, because it is working FOR him! :)

    Does anyone know the origin of the spit test?

    All I knew eight years ago, was that yeast starvation was some way to do something. I was too afraid to self-diagnose for thyroid or adrenals or other hormones, and yeast seemed like the most harmless way to go. It just didn't turn out to be "the thing" for me. But, the experience was extremely valuable, because along the way I learned what foods I have a sensitivity to, and all about the primary importance of gut health for anyone, inlcuding my kids. (Liver, too).

    I *think* I have a leaky gut, and my understanding is that many things can cause that along with yeast overgrowth-- oxidative stress, malnourishment, toxins, some medications, acidic matter that sits too long, constipation, as well as yeast. So, gut health is primary, no doubt. And liver health would be its twin.

    I think that the very good advice to listen to one's body is what has been the most difficult thing for me to do. I feel like this illness and all of the approaches I've attempted have created a major disconnect for me in that quest. I NEVER know what a symptom means anymore. I feel like that is what this illness has taken away from me.

    I often envy the people who are juicing, supplementing, taking meds, trying new treatments, and they report their "herxes" as well as their good spells. I am not able to tolerate hardly any of that, and I still feel poorly and have good spells. I'm simply trying to adjust to the little ol' magnesium and chromium supplements that my D.O. put me on that showed up deficient. My candida albicans did not show any antibodies, and yet antibodies for egg, soy and flaxseed showed up. But I sense that some would say that I should trust one test, but not another. So, as you can tell, I'm a confused mess. I don't think that is because I can't process information. I think it is more a crisis in knowing what to believe.

    As far as you saying you're not an expert on yeast, Stormyskye, I would say that if you had that dragon in your life, and you beat it, well then that gives you the distinction of being a dragonslayer, and I would be wise to listen. I might not ever be able to claim that honor when it comes to CFS or FM, but I do know that as long as it is in my life, I will have to find a way to be content while I contend with it. Confusion will always be part of the process.

    Thanks to all for their sharing their confusion as well as their clarity. Maybe we can confuse CFS/FM while we're in the process and at least make it go to sleep for a while, so we can be awake. :)

    My dragon analogy inspired me to relate a thought for the day that I will post for all.

    Lisette.
  5. Lichu3

    Lichu3 New Member

    Some of the physicians I've talk to have said to me that they thought it odd that so many of us try unconventional possibly expensive or harmful treatments but IT'S NOT LIKE WE HAVE A CHOICE!

    My feeling on this (and correct me if I'm wrong here, anyone) is that many of us would gladly go back to our usual diets (albeit healthy ones), stop our acupuncture, put away our herbs/supplements, and stop traveling to see doctors thousands of miles away if there were a safe effective conventional way to treat these illnesses available through our usual health care providers.

  6. GigglePoet

    GigglePoet New Member

    HI Friends, I am so enjoying your discussion. Cant add in right now as don't feel well, but want to tell you how proud I am to be in a group of people who express's their toughts so well and are so intelligent and giving! then I wanted to share with you what my first doctor who diagnoised me with my problems said..He checked me for yeast overgrowth and said that if the IGG IGA AND IGM all added up together and go over 300 then it indicateds a yeast overgrowth and needs to be treated...thought that was interesting information.
  7. poeticbobbi

    poeticbobbi New Member

    For me I kinda am leaning toward the yeast being a factor with FM.Im no doctor but alot of what I have read about yeast overgrowth fits my situation and symptoms.Now as for the doctor,I can't find one who will even consider yeast as a possible cause,they'd much rather write prescriptions,with the ole "try this and see how it works".
    As I have said repeatedly, Im gonna go for the herbal cleanse idea not only cause of yeast but other toxic crap thats hanging around.
    I'll be sure to post my progress....
  8. desertlass

    desertlass New Member

    I DID improve on the yeast starvation diet, but it just didn't prevent the final "bomb" that caused the collapse. Maybe I just didn't have enough time to regroup.


    I mainly treated the yeast with the diet, but I didn't take anything like Three Lac. And I can't remember now what the quality of the probiotics were. So, perhaps the diet alone wasn't enough. Who knows. I gave it my best shot, from what I knew at the time. And no, the Body Ecology Diet did not allow washing down probiotics with coffee (that made me chuckle.) I think the writers of those books would make excellent nuns. They like to eat vegetable soup for breakfast. ;) I am not that far down the path, shall we say.

    But it's often a good idea to revisit an old problem. The cream of tartar and molyb sounds like a cheap, easy whirl, so I might as well try that. If I make any progress, would Three Lac be in order?

    I find a lot of conflicting advice on what sorts of foods are "allowed". One place allows cheese if its melted and very hot and bread if its toasted and has killed the yeast in it. That makes no sense to me. I thought it wasn't about what was IN the food, but what it did IN the body, in this case, feed the yeast in the body.

    Also, how do you know when your yeast is balanced? Is it mainly symptom relief plus the spit test, tongue appearance?

    What is it that causes some people to get an overgrowth just from "cheating" with one white flour baked good or something-- anyone have ideas on that? Is this a case of chicken and egg? For one person, FM is caused by yeast, for another person poor immunity allows yeast overgrowth?

    Oh, and Stormyskye-- I still need some specifics about any kind of medication killing off probiotics. Please refer? I wasn't taking any medications eight years ago, but I am now. I need this info to be able to evaluate my progress. That would be great. (I couldn't find anything on that particular subject as of yet.) Or of course, anyone else who might be able to point me in the right direction-- it doesn't have to be Stormyskye.

    Oh, I looked for a long time to find the origin of the spit test, but I can't find it. I can find lots of sites that say to do it, how to do it, and what to look for, but I just can't find anything on who or how or why this became a test. I'm always interested in the history of how things got started. It's often one person, and their story is usually pretty interesting.

    After reading about yeast and people's experiences with it, I'm starting to look at myself and everyone like we're the Pilsbury doughboy. bleahh.

    On to another topic... like... liver cleanse...!!

    Good night all, or good morning, I see now.
    Lisette
  9. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    You ALL are the greatest! This discussion is turning out exactly as I had hoped and I am sooo excited! I'm getting all kinds of opinions and thought provoking questions/statements which is what I wanted. I not only have more to consider but, more to research. Did I mention I'm excited?

    To those of you who have already posted; Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou! If you think of any more you would like to add, please feel free to do so. Each one of you contributed something to energize the little ole think tank and keep it churning along.

    To everyone else; Come on, now is your chance to get it off your chest! Is this stuff hogwash in you mind or do you swear by the whole theory and get POed at people who just don't get it? But don't forget to say WHY you're so passionate in your belief!

    I haven't been this happy since I attended a couple of college courses where we were always engaged in a friendly debate that made us all think! This is fun for me as well as a great help in my decision so please keep it comin!

    Pat
  10. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hi Pat,

    The experience below is from my bio.

    I have no idea whether or (if so) how the "spit test" works.

    Best, Lisa


    *

    My most debilitating symptom has been a problem called Benign Paroxysmal Positional Vertigo (BPPV). This has caused periodic feelings of the room spinning around very fast and repeated vomiting if I do anything other than lie very still in bed without moving my head.

    As far as a variety of doctors (including some totally "mainstream" ones) have been able to tell, this has a primary cause of calcium carbonate crystals that were dislodged in my inner ear when I injured my head, but now is set off when yeast from sinus infections has pressed up against my inner ear (or perhaps grown into it) and caused the crystals to lodge themselves into place.

    Diflucan previously has been effective at treating the sinus yeast problem when it has flared up, but an increasing amount of my systemic and sinus yeast has become Diflucan resistant. (Strong anti-nausea medication also controls the problem, but this is not advisable or practical for long-term use due to side effects.)

    I thus am deathly afraid of systemic yeast (which eventually leads to the growth of sinus yeast) and do everything I can to avoid it.

    [This Message was Edited on 04/14/2007]
  11. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    Thanks for the reply! I wanted to ask you a question if you don't mind? When the doctors confirmed you had the ear/sinus/yeast problem(wow, does that sound painful-my ear started hurting when I read it! lol) did you show signs of yeast any other place on your body? You know, the usual like mouth, vagina, or nails?

    Thanks again, Pat
  12. Catseye

    Catseye Member

    For the worst of what yeast can do, look at the ultimate challenge to your immune system: AIDS. I have googled for what happens to AIDS patients who have out of control yeast. All kinds of things will start growing in your body when your immune system is compromised. I have seen photos of people with white patches of fungus growing on the insides of their mouths.

    There is nothing farfetched about yeast growing out of control in your body. If there was a safe, effective drug for it, you can bet we would all be tested for it and doctors would be pushing it. But right now, the most effective treatments for yeast are natural so you won't here a peep about it from your doctor or the medical community. In fact, they are more likely to label it a hoax because the natural treatments are so effective.

    It is just like when doctors believe that "adrenal fatigue" doesn't exist. When you burn out your adrenals and you are short on the nutrients they need, they become exhausted, like anything else would. If you give them the nutrients they need to function normally again, you can turn things around, although it can take awhile depending on the degree of exhaustion they're experiencing.

    Doctors will go to great lengths to steer you away from what your body needs just to keep you coming back to see them. They are so health ignorant and, ironically, they don't even realize it.

    best wishes,

    karen
  13. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    I wanted to interject at this point in this very informative thread to say a couple things;

    When I started this discussion I was a little concerned that it might stir up some controversy, hence my opening sentences. I find it very distressing to learn that anyone in the discussion is feeling negative vibes, so to speak, after merely doing what I asked of them. I wanted your personal opinions to help me make what I feel is an important decision. I have passed the whole yeast thing up because of my own disbelief and I am revisiting that decision, feeling I passed it over too quickly with too little research on my part.

    I realize some of you wholeheartedly believe yeast overgrowth treatment has either given you great relief and/or will do so for others. And I think that is great! I wanted to hear your experiences!

    However, I suspected there were others who felt the total opposite and I really wanted to hear those opinions as well. And, I felt people who were even a little skeptical of the whole yeast overgrowth thing might be somewhat intimidated to voice that opinion. That's why I continued to stress I wanted EVERYONE'S opinion.

    We may have gone by the wayside a bit I feel. I asked for you all to convince ME why you felt your theory was correct, not one another. I was hoping that way would give everyone the permission to say anything they felt without worrying someone else who had an opposite opinion would challenge them.

    This has become a relatively long thread and I'm well aware this makes it more difficult for some to wade through. It's been close to the top for 2 days! That pleases me greatly! If any of you still wish to respond, I will be checking it and continue to respond. However, I won't be bumping it anymore. You all can decide when it has run it's course. I very much appreciate everyones replies and will definitely keep it ALL in mind when making my decision. It feels close to me now and I will be making it soon. Thank you each and everyone for not letting me down. Thank you for sharing with me.

    Your Friend, Pat

  14. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    If you're feeling up to it, I did have a question for you. Did your tests come back over 300? If so, did you treat the yeast and what was the result? I am curious!

    Thanks for replying and for your sweet generous compliments to us all. I hope today has been much better for you.

    Your friend in this crazy complicated illness, Pat
  15. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    Thank you for replying! A couple of questions if you feel up to it and don't mind. The protocol you tried in 1979, was it pretty much similar to the current approach? Also, you mention Dr. Goldstein in your bio (yes, I did a quick peek) as well as your reply. Has he helped you a little, a lot, or enough to jump out of bed and dance a jig most mornings? In other words, are you still searching for ways to feel better? Also, are you strictly in the conventional medicine court or do you occasionally venture over to the natural and/or alternative court for a quick game? And, what does Dr. Goldstein think about playing in the alternative court--is he game(sorry, couldn't resist as I often get my kicks this way! Lol)? If I'm getting too nosy just ignore me.

    By the way, I find your challenging posts refreshing, occasionally humorous, but always refreshing. I do seek them out to read. Thought I would throw that in to let you know I do enjoy looking at things through a different set of eyes instead of the same ole ones all of the time.

    Pat
    [This Message was Edited on 04/14/2007]
  16. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    I wanted to genuinely thank you for contributing soooo much to this discussion! Like you, I find it all quite confusing! Many of the questions you have, I have also. The chicken or the egg point you mentioned visits my thoughts as well. The fact that you were researching the origin of the spit test, right along with me, shows what a sweet smart person you are. Oh, I never found the origin either, but it seems to go way way back.

    Have you ever read about research done by Dr. Lowe? I ran across his Spoiled Rotten article today and it really has my brain working overtime. Since we have many of the same questions, you might find it thought provoking as well. He has a website if you are interested. Just google his name. He also discusses yeast on his site but I don't know his views yet as I haven't had a chance to read them.

    If you have anything else to add to the yeast discussion, please feel free to do so. I started this thread and I want to know EVERYTHING you feel like sharing. That means any questions, opinions, or anything you feel like throwing out there. It's all important to me as I ponder my decision to treat or not to treat. I'm sorry you felt "stung". I sincerely apologize if it was my fault.

    Your friend on a quest, Pat
  17. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    I'm considering the cleanse thing as well since I came across a convincing article by Dr. Lowe entitled Spoiled Rotten. It made sense in some ways but, a couple past experiences are holding me back. Need to research it a little more I think, his protocol I mean.

    Thank you for your reply. I have reread it several times in my decision quest. Pat
  18. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    The last time (worst) I experienced the BPPV, it was preceded by a new vaginal yeast infection (with vulvodynia) by about two weeks.

    The vaginal/vulvodynia problem went away with the Diflucan I used for the BPPV, but then the infection returned exactly as before. Now--almost a year later--I can't get rid of it no matter what I use; boric acid merely keeps it under control. This has added substantially to my worries about Diflucan-resistant sinus yeast and caused me to remain more vigilant in the yeast battle. (Others may want to consider the idea of learning from my mistake and saving Diflucan for emergencies.....)

    I came down with the "killer flu" that started my CFS in early 1996. About two weeks later, I acquired the type of thrush that Karen (barrowinnovations) was talking about---a thick white coating all over the back of my throat, my tongue and most the rest of the inside of my mouth. I was pregnant at the time (I miscarried soon afterwards), and my OB/GYN gave me a Nystatin gargle for it. He admitted that it was very unusual but then said reassuringly that "people come down with all kinds of really weird stuff when they're pregnant."

    (Since only AIDS patients generally get that kind of thrush, I will note that I am HIV negative.)

    About two months after the experience with the out-of-control thrush, I started seeing an allergist. I tested positive for candida with blood and stool tests, as well as allergic to candida. (He said he tested patients for yeast because so many of them were allergic to it.)

    As a side note, I definitely believe that vaginal and sinus infections are manifestations of gut yeast. However, it has not been my experience that working hard on getting rid of intestinal yeast relieves my sinus yeast or vaginal yeast much. Once it gets in my vagina or sinuses, it tends to stay there.

    [This Message was Edited on 04/15/2007]
  19. pat460

    pat460 New Member

    I wanted to thank each of you. I found both of your replies filled to the brim with info. All of that wonderful info will be considered in my final decision and I do appreciate you both taking time out of your day to respond.

    Your friend in FM/CFS, Pat
  20. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    One more note after reading your post again. (I missed this point the first time.)

    I have had only two vaginal yeast infections in my life: one in college (1985) and the one I got last summer.

    It's my impression that for the most part, yeast moves from the bowel to the vagina externally.

    Perhaps you just practice really good bathroom hygiene?

    [This Message was Edited on 04/14/2007]