Sujay, regarding hypercoagulation and pathogens...

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by Stillkicking, Jun 20, 2003.

  1. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    Would it be possible to use aspirin (instead of heparin) and a bromelain enzyme to overcome hypercoagulation. In addition, would treatment of hypercoagulation make a staph infection, which coats itself in fibrin to fool the immune system, much easier to kill?

    In other words will treatment to disrupt fibrin coating on bacteria, using aspirin and bromelain, help overcome the antibotic resistance problem common in persistant staph and other infections?

    If this is the case, this could be a very safe complementary treatment which is not now being utilized. Thank you for your insight on this.
  2. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

  3. kgg

    kgg New Member

  4. sujay

    sujay New Member

    In my opinion you're thinking along the right lines. I am so grateful to everyone for sharing their thoughts on this because we don't understand this DD well enough yet to have many hard and fast rules. Mikie alluded to the importance of empiric treatment in another post, and I think it's important to keep reminding ourselves we have to KEEP TRYING. It helps, though, to try things that are SAFE and sound sensible, and disrupting fibrin coatings to get rid of staph makes sense to me, but to do it most effectively requires a doctor's supervision. (Bromelain is also touted as a booster to antibiotics, and maybe that may be a mechanism to explain how it works. It would certainly make some bacteria and viruses more vulnerable to our immune systems.)

    Aspirin is good at preventing platelets from clumping together, but that's not the only mechanism that causes clotting. In any case, I think we need to focus here on an increase in clotting factors as an abnormal increase in proteins that can clog up the circulation, slow down the flow of blood and interfere with transfer of nutrients to the cells.

    Good luck with your journey. We'll look forward to hearing about how you progress.[This Message was Edited on 06/24/2003]
    [This Message was Edited on 06/24/2003]
  5. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    Thank you very much for your response. I tried taking a baby aspirin and bromelain enzyme once a day for three days. I could definitely tell that something was happening. There was tingleing in my feet, a little dizzyness and I felt itchy and had blotchy skin.

    I stopped because I wasn't sure if this was a problem with an allergic reaction or not and I do not usually take aspirin because of the stomach irritation it causes.

    Is this just a healing reaction as my body tries to rid its self of the bacteria or what?
  6. kgg

    kgg New Member

    Have you ever had a reaction to aspirin products before? Not sure I'd take it again until you spoke to your doc. Just my humble opinion. . . -Karen
  7. sujay

    sujay New Member

    Glad to hear you're ... Stillkicking

    I'd stay away from aspirin. You may have to avoid other salicylates as well, and be alert to sensitivities to other chemicals. I have seen people become much more tolerant to various chemicals as their condition improves, but I very often find that patients with CFS/FM have a long list of drug allergies and adverse reactions. I wonder if it's an early phase of multiple chemical sensitivity.

    Anyway, be careful, and don't give up hope for a cure.

    Wishing you well,
  8. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    Thanks so much. I will be careful, but no pain no gain as the say. It's hard to say what's happening. I've been ill with CFS/FM many, many years and have reversed many of the problems it causes one by one by being persistant.

    The tingling, toasty feeling seems to be my circulation improving and I've noticed that my muscles are more relaxed. I'm not itching anymore, but am more tired and have that spaced out feeling (not so unusual with my sinus condition). The bromelain I took had other enzymes with it so today I bought a another kind with just bromelain in it. Some people believe that bromelain is very effective intreating sinus problems. I hope their right!!

    Staph bacteria is very powerful and when it dies or when it's threatened it releases a lot of toxin. So I expect to have some discomfort.

    When I did a blood smear last night there was a difference in the color and clotting than in previous smears. The blood is a brighter red and didn't clot up the instant it hit the glass. Unfortunately, the bacteria is still present for now.

    Everyone is different and maybe I just need to introduce these substances in smaller amounts in a longer time frame for a better effect. Only time will tell. I'll let you know what happens.

    Thanks again and be well.
    [This Message was Edited on 06/27/2003]
  9. sujay

    sujay New Member

    I'm relieved to hear the itching is gone. Do you know which pathogen you are dealing with? I'm wondering if we could subdivde our cases based on symptoms that might match up to any particular pathogens. For example, ice-cold extremiities seem to be a common complaint when mycoplasma are involved, but maybe I'm focusing in on that just because it was such a big problem for me - couldn't even sleep because my feet felt like blocks of ice. Any thoughts?
  10. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    I'm dealing with staphylococcus. Researchers are discovering what they thought they knew about staph isn't necessarily so. Several species of Staphylococcus, some of which were not thought to be disease causing because they didn't produce much of the alpha toxin, have been implicated. Instead of the dreaded alpha toxin, produced in cell walls, it's now believed that its the delta and horse toxins that are causing many of the chronic problems. (see McGregor's Thesis) They have also tried to determine which toxin cause certain problems and which species are implicated. Coagulase-negative staph, thought to be harmless, are now also implicated in disease and this term may even be a inaccurate and obsolete.

    Austrialian researchers found the more staphylococcus species infecting a person the more chronic pain and chronic fatigue disorders they have. Mutant L-forms (also known as small colony variants) are being found in many persistant infections and chronic conditions. (see Pubmed, Proctor RA) The L-forms are especially difficult to treat because of their slow growth and ability to hide inside cells. This and its lack of cell wall causes it to be antibiotic resistant. An old study found 1% of the population are infected with staph L-forms in their blood. The L-forms can revert back to regular staph to cause more acute illness.

    While about 25% of the population may carry a staph infection in their nose at any given time, this usually comes and goes. It's the people who always have staph bacteria that may be having persistant problems. If they have it in the blood, they have it in the nose and if they have it in the blood it isn't harmless.

    I see evidence of what may be L-forms in my blood along with a golden staphylococcus aureus species which pops up now and then. (These are also in my nose all the time) On culture it is slow-growing and has other characteristics of L-form. It's impossible for me to know what species and saprophyticus, epidermidis, intermedis as well as aureus species are all mentioned in research articles as possibilities.

    The best temporary way to warm up your feet is taking a hot bath before bed. The feet reflect problems with the rest of the body. Massaging the feet as well as the rest of the body will help restore circulation on a more permanent basis. I believe this is a more individual problem not related to any particular pathogen.

    How did you find out you had mycoplasma infection? Are you sure thats all it is?
  11. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    PCR techniques have been developed in research laboratories which enable the detection of these bacteria, but it is not commercially available. A blood culture from a clinical lab will not detect it and your sons negative result does not mean he doesn't have it. Odds are very high that it will be missed.
  12. sujay

    sujay New Member

    Thanks for the tip about the staph. It certainly bears further investigation on my part. I found out about the mycoplasma in my blood through PCR testing done at Medical Diagnostic Laboratories in NJ. They also test for EBV, CMV, HHV-6 and chlamydia in a panel they developed for CFS patients. Eli Mordecai is the lab director, and has been very helpful to me in my practice.

    Thanks for the reminder about the warm water foot baths. Problem is, at the time I was too tired to get out of bed to walk to the bathroom, let alone get all the way to the kitchen for a bowl. :) Thank goodness neither is a probem any more now that my circulation is back to normal. Before that happened to me I'm not sure I would have given enough credence to a similar complaint from a patient. Just goes to show how much we doctors have to learn.

    You might want to look into colloidal silver. It shows great promise in helping to battle those stealth infections. I'm still researching it myself, but expect to give it a try, as I'm really leary of long-term antibiotics, even though I've seen significant benefits in some of my patients.

    That's it for now. Hope you feel better.

  13. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    Many different infections have been touted as possible causes for CFS. Is it EBV, CMV, Micoplasma, Psudomomas, Strep, or some obscure undiscovered organism? We all have these type of organisms in our body - many, many different kinds. So its very confusing to decipher which one or ones are the problem. Before Staph was always discounted. "Oh, its eveywhere" health professionals may tell you as they dismiss this possibility. But it is the most common and deadly pathogen, hidden in plain sight, that turns out to be the culprit.

    I am sure you have NOT been tested specifically for these staphylococcus with PCR (polymerase chain reaction) testing. For those who don't know, is a very specific complicated test only for very specific species identification in vhich over 100 steps may be involved. You have to have a different PCR for each and every pathogen. I only know two university research labs who have developed PCR testing for these staphylococcus. If anyone knows of a testing facility capable please let me know.
    [This Message was Edited on 06/30/2003]
    [This Message was Edited on 06/30/2003]
  14. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    As far as I know the PCR for staph species is not available except in certain research facilities and some hospital labs because they treat acute cases and want fast results. I hope I'm wrong. I'll post another thread, as we are getting off topic, and ask everyone if there is a place our doctors can use for this testing. Maybe with a little encouragement the lab you used could do it.
  15. sujay

    sujay New Member

    Problem is there are so many possibilities. PCR testing is good, but 1.) it will only pick up what we're looking for 2.) if fragments are floating in the bloodstream at the time. I suspect that ANY organism in the bloodstream should be considered as a possible pathogen, but I don't really know of any studies that look for possible pathogens in the blood streams of healthy people. (Why would anyone do that?) But you can see how quickly the picture becomes complicated. And that's before we go shopping (or whatever) and expose ourselves to a host of new possible pathogens. We can't hide from them. I believe our only hope lies in modifying the ways our body's host defenses respond to them. Sometimes I just get tired of thinking of all the possibilities. Thanks for sharing your ideas.

    Good luck, everybody,
  16. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    Don't get discouraged by all the possibilities. Since I found out this is the cause, everything has fallen into place. I'm glad you are interested in learning about Staph, the L-forms and why it causes CFS/FM. I will try to save you some time and effort. To bad we can't post exact online sources addresses. I've been seriously studying this for more than 6 months and I know you probably don't have the energy or time to do extensive research. Most people just want to know in simple terms what's going on. I'll try to summerize some what I found out so far.

    The infection occurs in two ways-- because of a deficiency in certain nutrients and because of antibiotics. If someone were to catch an especially bad viral infection and happen to have staph in the nose (this is just one scenario), the stress of the illness and irritated mucus membranes could predispose them to develop L-forms because of a deficiency in certain nutrients which occurs (thiamine, vitamin K3, hemin). These nutrients in combination are necessary for staph when it reproduces to form its cell wall. Without the cell wall formation it is a L-form and has different characteristics -- one of them being its much more persistance. Another way for it to occur is for antibiotics, which attack and strip off the staph cell wall, to not complete their task. If the antibiotics are not strong enough and the immune system components do not finish it off, it becomes a L-form. These L-forms are mostly invisible to the immune system, can reproduce themselves and revert back to regular staph with the restoration of the before mentioned nutrients. This L-form staph is somewhat contagious and if your are a carrier it is able to spread to others and family members because of close contact.

    So why aren't we able to take a whole bunch of these nutrients and get well? Thiamine is readily available and hemin is a component of our red blood cells (iron). Vitamin K3, a clotting component, is also readily available. Once this infection process has been set in motion for long period of time it may take more than these nutrients to fix it especially if a condition like osteomylitis has developed. Since many who have hypercoagulation do not need to take Vitamine K without first thinning the blood, how is this best done? Maybe it needs to be done very carefully, under a doctors supervision and with specific testing to monitor. But what needs to be done and what's happening is two different things, since this goes unrecognized by the clinical labs, support groups and medical community for what it is. Without the clinical proof of a diagnostic test, like a PCR staph test, who's going to recognize this as the problem?

    At this time some are trying to kill the L-forms with strong combination IV antibiotics. This works for some but not everyone, has to be done with specific antibiotics, is extremely expensive, and is harmful with sometimes dangerous side effects. In addition, without a clinical lab diagnosis, insurance companies will not cover the treatment. So I take a iron pill, some thiamine and eat a dark green salad everyday. With a little luck, some bromelain enzyme, a baby aspirin and time maybe it will just gradually disappear.

    I seem to gradually be adjusting to the aspirin and bromelain. Wishing you well.
    [This Message was Edited on 07/01/2003]
  17. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    If you go to the CFSRESEARCHdot org website and look in the chronic fatigue area under Walter Tarello, you will see a full text article on horses. The blood smear pictures in this article is similar to what I see in my blood.
  18. Stillkicking

    Stillkicking New Member

    It's been over a month since I started taking bromelain and aspirin and I can definitely say that it is worth taking. The bromelain seems to neutralize the staph toxin which causes my severe nasal/sinus pain, TMJ pain,neck pain etc. In addition, the painful stiffness and soreness of muscles all over, probably caused by the fibrin disposition,is softening up and I believe being flushed out gradually.

    If nothing else, this cuts the pain down dramatically and may get people off the strong pain medicine. I haven't found anything but good about this enzyme. I refer you to PubMed article 11577981 for a review of the benefits. This may turn out to be the "miracle" treatment or part of it.

    Note: A couple of weeks ago I tried to take probiotics (good bacteria for digestion) and had a dramatic increase in pain. I ended up taking a antibiotic to kill this bacteria because I realized it threatened the staph and made it make more toxin. I think that gradually as the tissues recover the staph will die. When this good bacteria died the pain was gone. Other things we take may also interfere with the bromelain or cause increase in pain, so be alert to this.

    Best of Health.
    [This Message was Edited on 07/22/2003]
  19. sujay

    sujay New Member

    I'm glad you're feeling better. I think the bromelain is very useful, especially for people who can't afford to get tested or don't want to take heparin. As usual, you've given me more food for thought. Thanks for your input. I hope you continue to improve.