The hyper reactive immune system and overlapping autoimmune diseases in FM?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia and ME & Chronic Fatigue Syndrome' started by RadioFM, Jun 2, 2014.

  1. RadioFM

    RadioFM Member

    The Antibodies Song


    Antibody-Disease Correlations Made Simple!






    Infections
    may play a role in chronic inflammation inducing anti-citrullinated peptide antibodies in FM?

    I will be posting information on how inflammation can convert arginine proteins into citrulline antibodies. The immune system often attacks citrullination proteins. Chronic infections and methylation insufficiencies are a possible contributing factor in citrullination.

    If FM members test negative for rheumatoid factor there is another test called mutated citrullinated vimentin (MCV) antibodies that may help identify possible autoantibodies and overlap syndromes related to FM.


    Anti-MCV antibodies
    <---Rheumatologist can run this test



    "Detection of autoantibodies against mutated citrullinated vimentin is part of rheumatoid arthritis (RA) diagnostics, especially in sera negative for rheumatoid factor (RF negative sera). Anti-MCV antibodies are a member of the ACPA family, a group of the so-called antibodies to citrullinated protein/peptide antigens."

    "Rheumatoid arthritis is an autoimmune disorder. Detection of specific autoantibodies (antibodies directed against the body’s own tissue) such as rheumatoid factors and ACPAs may provide indication of the disease. In many cases, autoimmune diagnostics are crucial for diagnosing RA correctly and already in the disease’s early stages, when typical symptoms often are lacking but when medical therapy is most effective." Mutated citrullinated vimentin - Wikipedia,









    Radio:
    Mycoplasma and streptococcal infection can also be a possible factor related to the hyper reactive immune system and anti-CCP2 antibodies.



    "Anti-CCP2 antibody and rheumatoid (RF) tests are used for the diagnosis of rheumatoid arthritis (RA). Out of these two, anti-CCP2 antibody is supposed to be more specific for RA. Aim of the study was to present 33 cases of undifferentiated arthritis (UA) in which features of RA were not present, but anti-CCP2 antibody was positive. Out of the 33 cases of UA, 19 had well-known disease like hyperthyroidism, hypothyroidism, tubercular arthritis, traumatic arthritis, pneumonia with arthritis, varicose vein with pain in legs, cervical spondylitis and SSA. The duration of disease was more than one year in 67.86% cases. Majority of the patients were females (63.64%). Knee joint involvement was seen in maximum number (i.e. 20 cases). All 33 cases were positive for anti-CCP2 Ab. Maximum number of cases (78.78%) had involvement of one or two joints. CRP positivity was seen in 23.07% cases. Morning stiffness was present in (36.36%) cases, while swelling of the joint was present in 33.33% cases. In 16 cases, only serum sample was available for further analysis. About 62.5% cases showed IgG RF positivity. Antitubercular IgM and IgG were detected in 18.75% cases; ASO was elevated in 12.5% cases, and HBs Ag was positive in 6.25% cases. None of the controls (30 cases) were positive for these infections, anti-CCP2 antibody or RF. Thus, our study concludes that chronic infections like streptococcus, hepatitis B, tuberculosis and autoimmune thyroid diseases can produce raised levels of anti-CCP2 antibody and IgG RF." See more here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21789619










    Radio:
    Is there a immune system viral connection? In this paper they have identified viral citrullinated peptide - VCP2 - derived from the Epstein-Barr virus.


    Last edited: Sep 15, 2014
  2. RadioFM

    RadioFM Member

    Radio: I will be posting information relating to how the arginine ratio could possibly provoke an inflammatory response.

    Please review the link below...




    Radio: I believe that B12 deficiency and methylation insufficiencies are a possible contributing factor in citrullination related to myelin basic proteins. This could be another driving force behind the hyper reactive immune system related to FM.

    Please review this links:








    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
  3. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    Where do you get all that about arginine "provoking . . herpes virus"

    Arginine is an antiherpetic and used in the treatment of HSV-1
  4. RadioFM

    RadioFM Member

    Hello IanH,

    Radio: These are possible contributing factors open for interpretation.

    Arginine can stimulate the secretion of various hormones that can possibly provoke the herpes virus replication. You do make a good point that antiherpetic is used in treatment in HSV-1. I feel the real problem is that the arginine ratio is provoking an inflammatory response.

    If you the take time and review these links you will see that arginine is a possible factor in the hyper-reactive immune system. Inflammation can convert arginine proteins into the citrulline antibody. The immune system can attack citrullinated proteins, leading to autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis. If we can somehow replace these defective peptides proteins, this could potentially resolve the immune system's hyper-reactive immune response. Peptide Therapy could be a possible beneficial treatment option to consider.



    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
  5. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    1. You cannot eliminate arginine from the diet
    2. The amount of arginine required for the function of arginine-methyl transferase is very low and would always be sufficient for replication. Starving oneself of arginine will not affect the synthesis. Nor will raising the level of lysine in the diet.
    3. Raising the level of arginine inhibits the function of arginine-methyl transferase, therefore inhibiting viral synthesis.

    While dietary therapeutic increase in arginine is not a sufficient treatment, it is a successful adjunct, particularly when using acyclovir. So to say that arginine somehow "provokes" HSV is not correct.

    I often see clinicians, Naturapaths in particular, confusing biomolecular information with therapeutic information. Just because a molecule is involved in a biochemical reaction does not mean that that fact can be translated into the use or restriction of that molecule. Certainly not without science to test it. (we see this everyday in relation to many nutrient supplements, vitamin D in particular).

    In this case arginine is required by the virus but reducing the amount in the diet has no effect on synthesis.
    While raising the level of lysine is also anti-herpetic, the corollary of reducing arginine is not true.

    The confusion arose from the following study in 1978:
    A multicentered study of lysine therapy in Herpes simplex infection.
    Griffith RS, Norins AL, Kagan C. Dermatologica. 1978;156(5):257-67.

    This was a tissue culture study and has been subsequently shown to be true in vitro but not in vivo.

    So, currently there is NO evidence that the lysine/arginine ratio is a factor in the HSV-1 infection state. All we know is that if you raise the levels of either one to therapeutic amount they both have an effect on viral synthesis.
  6. RadioFM

    RadioFM Member

    IanH@,


    Radio: Yes, I agree with you about antiviral support. But, you are missing the point. This thread is about the contributing factors relating to the hyper-reactive immune system.


    This thread is not about viral synthesis or the arginine factor in viral synthesis.


    When viruses turns into a chronic condition, these viruses can change into a second and different infections called non-cytopathic viruses. When this happens we have two different infections going on in the body. One infection as regular virus and another second infection as a non-cytopathic virus.


    These regular viruses can live outside of our cells and can be silenced, to a certain extent, with antivirals. I feel that non-cytopathic viruses that can live inside the cells as an intracellular infections. There are no effective treatment option for non-cytopathic viral infections at this time. Also, raising arginine-methyl transferase and trying to inhibit viral synthesis will not have a impact on non-cytopathic viral infections.

    If you take the time and review these links you will see that arginine can be a possible factor in driving the hyper-reactive immune system. Inflammation can change arginine proteins into citrulline / antibodies. The immune system can attack citrullinated proteins, leading to autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis.


    The focus of this thread is to find an alternative treatment option for dealing with the hyper-reactive immune system related to defective proteins, viral peptides, non-cytopathic viral infections and chronic infection.





    This information is not intended to be medical advice. The information is meant to inspire and motivate you to make your own decisions surrounding your health care and dietary needs. It is intended for educational and informational purposes only.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  7. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    You say I am missing the point! I am making a point about part of your article/endeavour, which I do not disagree with. Once agai though you say We can try to limit, not necessarily eliminate arginine foods.

    Why? The point I am making is that there is no rationale for this action.
  8. RadioFM

    RadioFM Member

    My focus of this thread is to find an alternative treatment option for dealing with the hyper-reactive immune system related to FM and chronic infections.

    Infections may play a role in inducing anti-citrullinated peptide antibodies. Inflammation can convert arginine proteins into the citrulline antibody. The immune system often attacks citrullination proteins. Chronic infections, methylation insufficiencies are possible contributing factor in citrullination. This can lead to the development of chronic inflammation and autoimmune disease we see today.


    Radio Please post any alternative treatment option you have found to be beneficial at controlling chronic inflammation?




    Pay it forward and never give up!
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2014
  9. Mikie

    Mikie Moderator

    Even though the peptide injections have eliminated my CFIDS/ME and FMS symptoms, if I get sick or run down, whatever Herpes-Family chronic infection I have will try to rear its ugly head. A short course of Acyclovir will drive it back into latency and the viral symptoms will disappear. It takes far less time and antiviral meds to achieve this now that my immune and autoimmune illnesses are under control. I don't say, "Cured," because I don't see the injections as a cure.

    I believe there is still a HUGE amount of research needing done to unravel the complicated mysteries of our illnesses but, in the meantime, the peptide injections, plus all the treatments leading up to them, has alleviated my symptoms. I'm at least 80 percent of having glowing good health but no one else my age is any better so I'm guessing 14 years of aging have taken their toll as well.

    Love, Mikie
    RadioFM likes this.