Treating chronic systemic yeast dieoff progesterone

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by zipk, Sep 24, 2006.

  1. zipk

    zipk New Member

    Hi All

    I'm suspecting I have a big problem with systemic yeast and leaky gut. I also tested very low progesterone. Each time I try to use the progesterone cream I have a disabling exacerbation in all my symptoms. Then I started hitting it with nystatin, and now I've had a horrendous cold/sinus/flu thing for four days. Could this by dieoff?

    Anyone have any experience with treating yeast with nystatin? Any weird problems using progesterone?

  2. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Hmmm. For starters, Nystatin supposedly is not absorbed into the bloodstream and kills only the yeast in the digestive tract. I'm not sure why it would cause sinus problems, therefore.

    I have gotten die-off from Nystatin, but it's been things like brain fog, extra fatigue, gas and diarrhea/constipation.

    If the Nystatin reached your nasal passages, you could be getting a die-off from a latent fungal sinus infection (which seem to be more common than a lot of M.D.'s believe). I don't know how the Nystatin could get in there, though.

    I thought I had read at some point that progesterone and yeast had some relation, and a very quick Google confirms that some people believe this. Here's a random article:

    I just typed "progesterone candida."

    I've had terrific experience with natural progesterone (Prometrium softgels, not creams). It has reduced mental fuzziness a whole lot, especially during PMS. My bones are in great shape too. (Bioidentical estrogen prevents bone loss and bioidentical progesterone builds bone, supposedly.)

    I had never thought about it contributing to my yeast problems, but it's possible. Maybe I'll cease taking it for a little while and see how I survive without it. (Could be tough.) I've been struggling with a vaginal yeast infection for several months, and if a short hiatus from progesterone (I doubt I'll want to stop it permanently) could help me shake it, it might be worth it.

    Thanks for bringing this topic up!
  3. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Hi, Mo and Lisa!

    Wow, it's rare to find a thread that applies to what I'm doing so well.

    I started natural progesterone cream about four months ago and I love it. It helps me a ton. I've started very gradually, with a very small amount, and am working up.

    I wonder, Mo, how your other hormone levels are. I know that when you start changing the levels of one hormone, it can reveal deficiencies in other hormones. Sometimes.

    I didn't get a Herx, or die-off reaction, or exacerbation of symptoms from the progesterone cream. So far.

    But then about three weeks ago I started taking Candidase, a natural enzyme that dissolves the cell walls of yeast cells. It is causing a huge die-off reaction in me. (flu-like symptoms, exhaustion, fever) I've had to take 2 or 3 pills a week instead of 2 or 3 pills a day, because I can only handle a little bit of it.

    And the Candidase is supposed to cause fewer side effects than the "poisons" like Nystatin. Yikes!

    I'm treating a suspected systemic yeast infection, caused just by being sick so long, not a vaginal infection.

    Lisa, have you ever read Dr. John Lee's books about hormones? They are really good. He suggests that a low level of one particular estrogen, Estriol, can cause yeast infections. And he says a topical cream of it can help with them.

    So it's kind of puzzling. Apparently too much of some estrogens or two little of another can cause yeast susceptibility. I hope you find some answers.

    Maybe you could try raising your sulphur levels by eating more onions and garlic.

    A traditional cure for yeast infections is to boil 4 onions, each cut in fourths, in a pot of water. Then toss the onions and drink the broth.

    [This Message was Edited on 09/24/2006]
  4. Jeanne-in-Canada

    Jeanne-in-Canada New Member

    I started using progesterone cream several mths ago at a low dose. I think my chronic vaginal yeast is even worse lately. I've stopped the cream this mth and will see what happens. Most of the benefits I'd hoped for didn't happen anyway.

    Arent' pregnant women more susceptible to yeast infections? Progesterone is highest during pregnancy, so I've wondered about the link.

    I used Nystatin years ago and it caused more resistant yeast. It took me several mths to notice I was worse and not better. I kept attributing extra symptoms to die off, but it wasn't.

  5. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    That's an interesting point about the Estriol. The Vivelle patches I use contain only Estradiol. I used to use just Estriol cream, and then the 3-estrogen cream, but neither helped nearly as much as the patch. I'm going to see my CFS doc in a couple of weeks, and I guess I'll have to ask for the tri-est cream again. I'm on every other hormone available, so I don't know why I thought I could skip this one. (Well, I have a huge supply of Human Growth Hormone in my refrigerator, but don't use it because it knocks me flat on my butt, apparently by channeling all my energy into repair. It worked wonders when I badly sprained my ankle, though.) Thanks for the recommendation!

    I've read a number of books and a bunch of articles on hormones, but apparently missed that one. I will look for it.

    At one point my doctor gave me Ampotericin-b for resistant gut yeast. (I don't remember if he did a test to see what kind of candida they were or if he just decided they were resistant.) It seemed to help.

    Garlic is a wonder food and I should eat much more of it. Onions too. Food is such a hard thing for me, for various reasons. I'm starting to think that maybe if I put all my currently available energy into food-related enterprises (shopping regularly, only buying organic etc., cooking, eating regular balanced meals, avoiding all allergens and sugar without any exceptions ever, always using stomach acid and enzyme supplements, testing for potential additional food allergies, including more super-foods like garlic, keeping the juicer out and in frequent use, whatever), maybe I'd feel totally better (and thus again have new energy for other things too). I guess I must give it a try. Sometime.
  6. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Yes, yeast go crazy during pregnancy. I got thrush (yeast infection of the throat) during the first month I was pregnant. (This was the exact time I 'caught" CFS.) I thought that only babies and AIDS patients got that. My OB/GYN was totally unsurprised and gave me nystatin "mouthwash," which worked fine.

    Mo: If you are getting this nasal thing from the progesterone (I really doubt it's the Nystatin), that makes me think that you probably have a chronic low-level fungal sinus infection. The main symptom I get with this is extreme sleepiness (which is much different than CFS fatigue)....e.g. wanting to sleep 12 hours a night and often doing so. Also fuzzy thinking, sinus pressure, post-nasal drip, headaches, and "CFS fatigue" increase. If you do have a low-level infection, getting rid of it could help you feel considerably better in general. If this is the case, Diflucan (unless it's that "resistant" yeast) would probably make you feel better within a couple of days. My experience is that a longer course (1-3 months) can be necessary to keep it from returning, though. Doctors can be hesitant to give this though, in part because of liver side effects (my enzymes were always fine) or because they just don't believe that yeast causes sinus infections. (The more knowledgeable doctors I've encountered do believe it, though.) This is discussed in Teitelbaum's stupidly-named book, "From Fatigued to Fantastic." My experience with this issue matches his comments perfectly.
  7. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Aren't digestive enzymes (e.g. the bromelaine Carla-NL keeps raving about; others exist too) supposed to help with leaky gut?
  8. zipk

    zipk New Member

    Thanks for all the comments. Both times I tried the progesterone cream, I got extreme spike in my symptoms, including the raw sinuses. It is indeed possible I have the funal infection all over.

    I hear what you say about elevated levels of progesterone causing yeast, but what about rising levels of progesterone? As I said, I have very low progesterone and am just trying to get it up to normal.

    Thoughts on this?
  9. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    I'm too tired today to do an online search on this, even though I'm now really interested in the topic and probably will at some point.

    I think what we're getting is that estrogen and/or progesterone make it easier for yeast to thrive regardless of the amount. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that women are more likely to be diagnosed with CFS. (It could be that men have the same predisposition, but don't have symptoms that are as bad on average because they don't have much of those hormones.)

    It sounds like your real issue may be getting rid of the yeast that already seems present in your body to begin with (and that really goes out of control with the progesterone). If I were you, I'd hit that one hard. (I can give you ideas on this if you need me to, but this is pretty common stuff and so you might not need that.)

    Probably I wouldn't take the progesterone until I worked on the yeast for a while, but I'm not sure.

    Yeast and hormones are two of my biggest issues. If I can get those under control at a particular point in time, I feel much better. Perhaps you will find this to be true too, if you work on them.

    I'll let you know if I do any more research and find out anything else interesting. Good luck.
  10. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    It's nice to hear how you're doing, Jeanne! I'm sorry to hear about the yeast infection.

    I hear you about the human growth hormone, Lisa. I had some HGH secretagogue and had to dilute it to be incredibly weak before I could handle taking it. I finally just gave up on it, because it was making my nerve pain worse.

    Maybe I should try it again after I have done more of this Candidace (systemic yeast treatment).

    It does seem like I need every hormone I can get my hands on, in very small amounts.

    Hey, Lisa, do you have any other good book suggestions for the subject of hormones?

    I wouldn't give up my progesterone cream for anything. I had a thermogram of my breasts recently and it showed that they are too warm. In other words, I have an imbalance of estrogen to progesterone. My estrogen isn't high, but my progesterone was really low. I want to correct things before I head down the road to getting breast cancer.

    Plus, it really helps me sleep better.

    I do take bromelain and really like it. It helps my allergies.

    Best wishes, Mo and Jeanne and Lisa!


  11. ruby711

    ruby711 New Member

    I tried all kinds of progesterone including compounded natural forms and all gave me problems with yeast and more tiredness. I just stopped taking it.
    I eventually ended up with hyperplasia which is a build up of the uterine wall which caused periodic bleeding. I managed this way for several years and then had a hysterectomy. Some women never end up with hyperplasia. Not taking the progesterone could possible lead to increase chance of cancer but I could not function taking progesterone.

    Docs don't and can't know everything, and come in all varieties. Some don't always have time to read up-dated literature, some don't beleive stuff they read or some think lots of responses are psychosomatic in nature, or don't experience the problem themselves therefore it doesn't exist.
    They are as fallible as the rest of us with limitations, prejudices and irrationalities.
  12. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Oh, I just checked my Dr. Lee book and realized that I made a mistake. Estriol prevents UTIs, not yeast infections! I'm sorry about that!!! I get those two types of infections mixed up all the time.

  13. mbofov

    mbofov Active Member

    This is an interesting post, I never knew there could be a connection between yeast infections and progesterone.

    I am using an OTC progesterone cream that I get from this board. I had to play with the dose. I had assumed it was less potent than my prescription cream so used more of it, and ended up feeling drugged and horrible for 3 weeks, with night sweats, exhaustion, nausea. I finally pinned it down to too much progesterone, I went off it for a few weeks, and carefully am back on it, on smaller dose and am doing good now. Without it my insomnia was getting very bad.

    Re yeast infection: I found that virgin coconut oil is very good for getting rid of it. Coconut oil is high in lauric acid and caprylic acid and one other thing which kill yeast. It's also good for your thyroid and your skin, among other things.

    The downside is the die-off. I used it about 2 years ago and had a very bad herx for about 10 or 11 days, but it worked. It's safer than Nystatin - it won't hurt your liver.

    HOwever, I recently started coconut oil again (2 tablespoons a day) for another yeast infection, anticipating the worst again, but this time I was taking l-methionine (amino acid) (two 500 mg. capsules a day on empty stomach), I can't quite remember why. THis time I had very little die-off symptoms, but the yeast infection is going away anyways. I think the l-methionine is helping with the die-off and getting it out of my system. I can't tell you why but it really seems to be helping. It's been nothing like 2 years ago, and I'm very happy about that.

  14. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    I will have to try that amino acid! (after researching it, of course)

    Maybe it will help me with my die-off reaction from the Candidase.

    I've been taking caprylic acid capsules for quite a while now, and use coconut oil for cooking. I love them both.

  15. baanders

    baanders New Member

    can purchase in health food store or get from compounding pharmacist. It is essential for bone density, especially by age 35 and after, according to Dr. Lee. He claims through experiments that it prevents and treats osteoporosis better than Fosomax, etc.

  16. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    B to respond soon
  17. yodasmom

    yodasmom New Member

    I took Nystatin years ago and had severe die off. It was the big thing to do then so I was advised to try toothpick size doses. My natural doc finally had me stop becuase it was showing more problems with Nystatin than benefits as you get more susecptible to molds (which happened to me but has since gotten much better!)Any hormones will affect yeast. Be careful of Dr lee as a lot of natural docs do not go along with all his thinking. It is alos not based on science. He is extreme and leaves out the yeast problem that a lot of people get.
  18. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    What do people think of activated charcoal to deal with die-of hex problems?

    It certainly works. What are the drawbacks? (Does it interfere with absorption of meds, for example? Can this be avoided?)


    Provided I don't get thrown off the board, I will list the hormone books that I've consulted in the past soon. They're a bit dated though.....I've mostly been reading articles over the past few years.

    Also see my post (I think started by PVLady) on bioidentical hormones to see all the stuff I take.

    I've never had a UTI, but probably I will eventually. That's good information to know, therefore.
  19. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    Well, perhaps I will try not taking progesterone for a while and see if I can ditch this vaginal yeast infection. Nothing seems to have worked thus far.

    Unfortunately I'm allergic to coconut and had a bad experience (I think) taking the stuff orally. I tried inserting some vaginally, but apparently this hasn't worked (at least a week into the program) either.

  20. Forebearance

    Forebearance Member

    Yodasmom, may I ask you a question?

    I know links are not allowed on the board, but could you please describe some websites for me, or books, where I could read the viewpoint of someone who disagrees with Dr. Lee?

    It would help me a lot, as I've just read Dr. Lee's book on breast cancer and it seemed to make sense to me. So I'd like to find out what I'm missing.

    Thanks a bunch!