trigger points and tender points of fibro

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by talper, Sep 21, 2006.

  1. talper

    talper New Member

    i posted a msg here describing the way my pains started and spreaded(after physical stress like weightlifting)

    you advised me to look at cmp(chronic mayofascial pain).
    one of my first pains was in the wrist.
    i read a paper claiming that fibro tender points are local and dont refer pains while trigger points does refer points.
    i know i maight have both(i was adviced by you to look it as "chronic mayofascial pain" because my age, gender and the way it started (18 yo male), but if i have pains in my wrist, which arent trigger points or tender point place, it maight, or actually have to be a refer from a trigger points, and if so, i maight have more trigger points, that reffer to the fibro points(which may not be realy fibro tender points, but trigger points)

    the only pain started before the wrist pain was the shoulders pain.
    i have a book that i think say, that a trigger points in the shoulders/trapezius area will screen to the wrist also.

    my questions are, if fibro pains dont refer pain, the pains in the non fibro areas are from pains referred by the trigger points, right?
    is there really a chance(by the way the pain started) that its just alot of trigger points, reffering to places in my body, and causing(or even there are trigger points in there also) look alike fibro tender points>?
    and the fact that one of my severe and first pains is in the wrist, must say i have atleast 1 trigger points reffering the pain to my wrist, right?

    so by treating the trigger points, i maight get rid of the pains?
    do i have any advantage by the way the pains started, and my age and gender on a more "known" fibro patients? (women, age 20+), which maight point at my real problem->multiple trigger points?

    thank you
  2. Redwillow

    Redwillow New Member

    bumping hoping someone else has some answers
  3. talper

    talper New Member

    i know that "fibro" (of course non of us know exactly what "fibro" is yet), affects much more women then men, and older then 18.
    chronic mayofascial pain in the other hand affect both equaly, at any age, right?
    its smart to search for "chronic mayofascial pain" as my problem, right? the chances i have this(again, looking at my age, and the way the pains started) are actually much bigger then the chances i have "unknown fibro".......?

    i have here kind of a transalation of a trigger points theraphy book.
    the book shows pains all over the body, and then points each pains, to x places whre there can be trigger points who reffer pains to the exact place i have the pain in.
    the problem, is that this was probably written to those who have 1-2 pains.
    its very hard for a non-professional, so start "mapping" his own body, while he have pains all over the body, cause it will cause saying like "i have pains here, so the trigger points can be here and here, but wait, i also have pains there so another trigger points can be there, but i also got.." well you understand my points :).

    its very hard when your pains are all over the body.
    im going in tusday to a therapist, who also do trigger points theraphy. (btw-if you can do it by your own, so the therapist doesnt need to have a degree in trigger points therapy, right?)

    if i understand right, chronic mayofascial pain can be like fibro exactly, and has a cure and treatment.
    why doctors dont get patients do the theraphy? (is it considered unconventional still?)
    lol, imagine me after a few treatments feeling much better.
    what the hell i will(or he will to me) say to this very worlidwide top fibro specialist who diagnosed me with fibro and doomed me for a long suffering time? (and ofcourse, drugs)..... just this thought, where i asked him he said "you have fibro for sure!".
    again-even top fibro docs, wont know if it is really cmp, because there can be cmp trigger points in the "fibro tender points", right?
  4. talper

    talper New Member

    vtw- i tend to look at my body as one.
    actually, while treating triger points "a" i will have the same pains exept those who "a" reffered to and so on, right? each time i will eliminate a trigger points, i ill lose more and more pains? or i have to eliminate --all-- to get any better?
  5. talper

    talper New Member

    what the deal with the teraphy?
    massiva amount of people tried it, and only a few lucky ones got better, and much less lucky ones dont have pains anymore?

    or its a relativly new thing, and probably all of those who have pains not in the fibro tender points, have trigger points, and the therapy will help?
    are there many that have only trigger points, who belived to be fibro, and they just live thinking they have fibro? (not sure if you can answer that)

    what are the better chances(looking at my stats also.):
    that i have fibro+trigger points as secondary thing, or that i just have multi trigger points, that spreaded because of the physical "trauma" of weightlifting?
  6. pumpkinpatch

    pumpkinpatch New Member

    I went to a local chiro yesterday and he started feeling my upper back and neck and said the muscles were tense and yes hard! He is going to start trigger point massage tomorrow along with some chiro.

    Hayley when the muscles are so knotted how do you get the massager to do the trick? I also have balls with the plastic picks sticking out. I'm also going to pull out my electric stimulator with the massage setting.

    Next I'll be laying on a bed of nails!!!

    Cindy
  7. talper

    talper New Member

    cindy, you mean how you do the massage when your muscle are tense and very sore when being touched?
    if so, it is mentioned in places, that when massaging a trigger points you will have pains. (i think the best thing to say is "no pain no gain")
    if you feel pain even much pain, think always about how much better you can feel afterwards.
    i remember now, that i saw somewhere, that alot of fibro patients who had thos pain for years, and are in a very bad condition (and you dont have to be the worst among all to have very very severe pains) are having much hard time with the massage because they hurt so much. (i think those are the people that jump and squeeze even by a hand touch)
    i say it mostly because i hope its true, but i belive that those who are new fibro patients(where most of their problems are trigger points of course) will benefit much from the massage, as those who are in later phases will have much much pains.
    (every new fibro patient, or at least most will tell you how much pain they have, so imagine those who have fibro for 4-5 years and even more ofnon stop pains.....)
  8. talper

    talper New Member

    from what i understand(and i may be wrong), tender points of fibro(in the known places) do not reffer pains to other places, while trigger points(there are 30-40 trigger points in the body or actually much more i think) does reffer pains to other places.
    if im right so, for examply lets take me->one of my first pains abd one of thw wrost are in my wrist.
    there isnt a fibro tender points in the wrist, but there isnt also a trigger points.
    so it must mean that another trigger points in the body(and if you will press it you will feel tenderness even if you not feel it daily) reffer the pains to the wrist.
    if there is a point that reffer the pains to the wrist or other places, it maight as well reffer it to other parts, and you may realise that your pains in x+z+y is being reffered from trigger point "b", and your pains in q+a+r id being reffered from "c".
    if i understand right, 2 trigger points can reffer pain to the same location, and then there is more pain and sensitivity.

    read this short paragraphs:
    http://www.triggerpointbook.com/triggerp.htm


    i read that trigger points are local, while fibro tender points spread all over the body, but understand its not true.
    i think there is more points then 40, and each one can reffer pains to as many as 5-6 locations.

    im confused as you,if trigger points can reffer pains,including to to the fibro locations(and other places hich arent fiboro locations, like the wrist), why doctor dontpay attention to that?
    i guess the answer is that its not conventional medicne...
    i dont know, worth trying.
  9. talper

    talper New Member

    that when talking about trigger points, a person can have lets say, one pain in the wrist and one pain in the shoulders, but both will be because of trigger point in another different place.
    i i understand right, its rare for a trigger points, to put pain exactly in the place she is located in.(while fibro tender point puts pain --only-- in the place she is located in).
    so, from what i understand, a person with only "fibro" will have much pains all over the body, --only-- in all, or some of the known 18 tender points.
    it makes you feel like all your body ache and hurt, because the pains are located in all 4 quatres, but again, fibro tend points cant reffer pain.
    so when you have "fibro" but you have pain in a place that isnt one of the 18 places, you need to look at "trigger points", and you may even realise that alot of your pains are due to trigger points, reffering pain troughtout all your body.
    i read that trigger points can be --anywhere-- in the body, and reffer pain to anyplace, including to the known "fibro points".
  10. pumpkinpatch

    pumpkinpatch New Member

    Just wanted to say that I just went back to the chiro and he just concentrated on my back and neck with the trigger points. He said I'm full of those knots and he is going to try to deactivate them. I'm going 3 times per week for the next few weeks. After the knots go down a little will have some adjustmens. Thank you everyone. My back feels so much better. He really dug in and it felt good!!!

    Cindy
  11. talper

    talper New Member

    haley, how do you do it? i mean how do you find the spots?
    i guess you have pains all over your body, as do i.
    for example i have severe pains in my wrist(which isnt a tender point location or trigger points, which mean a trigger point reffer pain to this location)
    i should look at the book(i have a wired transalation in hebrew) at the locations of the trigger points that reffer pains to the wrist, and touch each one and see if i have sensitivity when touching.
    if so, this is the trigger points reffering the pain to the wrist, right?
    if i massage the points reffering the pain to the wrist, i maight realise that it also reffer pain to other places including "fibro" places?
    how should i "map" my body? if i have pains all over, its hard to find trigger points, as i cant push each centimeter in my body searching for tenderness when i have pains all over.
    the book you mentioned, map each trigger point place and the places it reffer pains to, but its intended to help those who have 1-2 tps and a little pain here and there, its harder for those who have full body pains.
    in my situation, where i have pain in a place(the wrist) which isnt a fibro place or close to it, i should start there, and find(by the book)my tender spot which the tp which reffer the pains to my wrist located at?
    and then what?
    btw- the trigger points, dont attach to each other, right? when you shutdown a spot, you shut it down, right? you dont have to shut down other spots for her to be deactiavted, right?
  12. talper

    talper New Member

    i do have a transaltion of the refference, in hebrew, with all the muscles.
    i fotgot one thing, and its that you look at your pain.
    trigger points dont do cause in the place they are, right?
    you need to push it to have pains.
    so i work wisely? i should take my pains, look at the refference and try to find tps that reffer pains to more then 1 of my pains area? or if i have lets say 13 pains in my body, i probably have 13 tps?
    what i should look for in my body, are areas that painfull only when touched?
    when looking at the refference and it say:
    "pain in the wrist is cause by tps in the a, b and c" i should press each place, and just when i feel severe pain while pressing i know there is a tp there, and forget about the other 2? we are talking about very severe pain, right? i mean, i guess when you have pains all over the body, even places which arent trigger point places are a little tender, but trigger point place will cause very sharp and painfull pain when pressing, right? its the kind of pain that last for a few seconds, even when you dont push it any more?

    -----

    oh and btw, what kind of massager do you own? how does it look like?

    -----

    [This Message was Edited on 09/23/2006]
  13. talper

    talper New Member

    hey.first of all, thanks for your response.
    second, i say "mapping" becauseat the moment i have pains all over my body, and i guess you did too, before started massaging the trigger points.
    if i have pains in all 4 quatres, all over the body, how should i approch it? thats what i menti guess now you have little pain because you worked on your tps in the past, but how did you start it?
    is it better to give the job the a specialist first, and when he reliease most of your points, just maintain what he did, and reliese the ones left?
    btw, how did your massager look like? he should be a small masager so he can touch each tp seperatlly?
    for example, is this too big:
    http://www.dr-gav.co.il/_Uploads/439rm-200.jpg

    ?? i should look for a massager that will be small(as finger tip) and will massage each point seperatlly?

    thanks
  14. Abbycat

    Abbycat New Member

    I've come late to this discussion, but I totally agree with Hayley. I think, Talper, you are getting confused about what to massage, since it seems your whole body is a trigger point. You are very concerned about your wrist, so work on all the trigger points that refer to the wrist. Even if they don't hurt very much.

    The idea is that you want to release the muscle tension and the toxins from the muscles that are causing your wrist pain. Some may not hurt very much but do it anyway. The one's that do hurt require a lot more work. Don't know where I read it, but a trigger point requires a steady pressure of at least a minute and more like two minutes to fully release. The worst ones take a minute or two longer.

    Two minutes is a long time if you look at a clock, and you may feel a temporary relief long before that, so keep at it. You should start to feel a warmth in the area that you're massaging.

    It seems that more doctors would know about this technique, but they don't. If drugs don't work then they don't know what does. That is their job, to prescribe drugs. Anything that works that aren't drugs, puts them out of business.

    A doctor will not admit that they don't have a drug to cure what ails you. Some may send you to physical therapy or to a psychiatrist. It is really up to us to find a treatment. Myofacial Pain Syndrome is not a recognized illness because the medical profession, physicians/drug companies don't have a way to make money from the diagnosis.

    The cure is physical therapy and not drugs. That is why there is no treatment. There aren't many therapists who do Myofacial pain release. It's going to happen soon because it works. Not just for us who suffer the most, but because most people have this pain and they are going to demand that something be done about it.

    You've got the book. Work on your wrist pain and see if that doesn't help. I was such a bundle of pain at first, that I wore myself out trying to get relief from all my pain. Work on the worst pain and move on from there.

    Abbycat
  15. talper

    talper New Member

    i have one more question.
    there is a "fibro" tender points in the trapezius, right?
    the tender points are local and should put pain in the trapezius.
    i have sensitivity(very much) in both trapezius when pushing, but......
    in the 10 months since i got all of the pains, i never had one pain in the trapezius!! (like that where i didnt need to push it to have pains).
    "tender point" should be local and put pain localy.
    how can i know its not really a "trigger point"? (in both trapezius).
    the fibro doc pushed it for tenderness, and it was tender wbut not before! and not very much after(while all thetimei had pains in other parts).

    so-fibro tender points only put pain where she is located, right? so you can have pain exactly where she is located, or dont have pain at all, where she is located, only when touched?
    so how one knows its really a fibro tender point, and not trigger point? those who have "real fibro" (whatever it is) have active pains in their trapezius?

    i know trapezius can reffer pain to the wrist, but if it is a real trigger point and not tender points, and it was one of the main points he pushed, what should i think?

    btw-is it rare for one of the first pains, and lasting ones, when developing fibro, is far far from the tender points? (the wrist),
    i can know for sure that some point reffer the pain to my wrist, and its treatable for sure, right?
    how can i know other parts of my body arent the same?

    for examply i have tenderness and points in my neck, and in my calvs also)




    --------------

    abby:

    i guess not my whole body is a trigger point, but there are 7-8 or even more trigger points that causing the pain, i do have some that i know their place exactly.

    --------------

    [This Message was Edited on 09/25/2006]
  16. talper

    talper New Member

    btw, the pain in my neck is on both sides which arent a tender points from what i know.
  17. talper

    talper New Member

    just to be clear:

    if i have pains in parts in my body which arent ---exactly--- the fibro tender points(even 2 cm from there), i know for sure a trigger point is to blame, and it can be treated easily, right?
    and i maight realise that all of my so called fibro pains, are no more then a few trouble trigger points, right?
  18. shnopee

    shnopee New Member

    Hi Talper -

    I read this thread with much interest because everything that haley mentioned is exactly on point, and with this whole FM experience wished that I knew about this very early on as I could have spared myself years of pain that I could have helped managed myself, cannot say it any better or more clearly or more succinctly as she has. I was diagnosed with FM also and like you, just cannot believe that my WHOLE body was in pain, so I can understand completely why you keep asking about how can you "map" your pain. I did not realize until I finally had massage work done, that I realized that my "Whole" body pain can actually be "broken down' into smaller pieces that all taken together makes my whole body feel like a giant piece of walking pain.

    I think this realization was so critical in realizing that there are actual spots that hurt and it is not just generalized pain, which is what I kept reading about about FM - it is actually A LOT of pain an a lot of parts all over the body that make you feel that your whole body is in pain. After this realization is when I actually started researching and found the book that Haley refers to by Clair Davis - it is to me the most invaluable piece of reference in my aresenal of tools for managing the pain.

    I think it might behoove you not to get too techinical about it and worry too much about mapping you pain/trigger points first, just go to the area that hurts or bothers you the most first and work from there and slowly go to the different parts. In the beginning as I was "discovering" my body, I was finding pain and referred pain in places you can never imagine. When my pain started moving to my feet to the point that I can barely walk and catch up with my toddler, I really had to get moving fast to find a way to manage the pain and as soon as I received the Clair Davis manual, went to work right away in finding the cause for my foot pain and as Haley said, it was in the furthest place you would think of. The trigger points were in my calves and as soon as I hit the specific trigger point and manipulated it for a couple of minutes, it was almost like turning off a switch and no more pain!!! To me, this discovery is the most liberating so far in this whole experience with FM, that there is something I can do to help myself manage the pain that actually works. It just takes some patience but the relatively little amount of work yields much much greater pain relief. After doing it for 2 nights in a row, my sleep improved dramatically since and I realize in looking back now that the years of poor quality sleep I was getting before that was probably because without realizing it, my whole body was alwas contracted in pain and therefore tense and all knotted up which does not allow for a restful state of sleep.

    Another "discovery" that really helped was the use of tennis balls - Clair Davis mentions the use of tennis balls but the way he showed it didn't help me as much. Another massage thereapist showed me how to lay on 2 tennis balls starting from the highest part of my shoulder blades and slowly rolling over it, I mean extremely slowly and with very very minute movements, sort of roll it around to find spots that hurt and surprisingly, I realized that I would find a lot of spots that I didn't even know hurt and which after a little manipulation made me feel much better.

    Together with the clair Davis book, I also found another book that made me realize that this whole time that I was diagnoes with FM, the symptoms of Chronic Myofascial Pain sounds more like me than FM

    These are the books I mentioned:

    *Very very good book on of FM and CMP, for me this was the most helful in really trying to figure out what was going on in my body...


    Fibromyalgia and Chronic Myofascial Pain: A Survival Manual (2nd Edition) (Paperback)
    by Devin J. Starlanyl (Author), Mary Ellen Copeland (Author)

    *This is the trigger point manual that Haley and numerous others in other threads mentioned

    The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief, Second Edition (Paperback)
    by David G. Simons (Foreword), Clair Davies (Author), Amber Davies (Author)

    *Although I was already doing well with the tennis balls and working out some of the knots, this balls and book set refined the process even more and is a good complement

    The Miracle Ball Method : Relieve Your Pain, Reshape Your Body, Reduce Your Stress