Two Questions

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by greatgran, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. greatgran

    greatgran Member

    1. How many are housebound with CFIDS/FM ?

    2. How many suffer with depression/anxiety with this dd?

    For me I get out some but not like I would like but mainly housebound and with this dd came so much anxiety/depression.. My doctor (a new one) keeps telling me to get out and do, the more I do the more I feel like doing. Yeh, Right.... Also depression / anxiety is not part of this disease. Yes, I am looking for a new doctor .. But would like something to compare myself to .. I go back in a week to find out about the edema I have mainly in my left ankle. I will be seeing a new PA until I can get in with an internist.

  2. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    I just translated your questions to Latin. I've had docs do that to me. It doesn't help at all.

    Yes, anxiety, depression are symptoms, chronic fatigue and FM are symptoms too.

    There are two root causes that are under scrutiny with the above symptoms:
    1) Nutritional deficiency: protiens -> amino acids -> neurotransmitters (serotonin, GABA, norepinephrine)
    2) Die-off toxicity: Dead bacteria, viruses and fungus (yeasts) pollute the brain. The liver is the most significant detox organ of the body.

    Many neurotransmitters are made in the colon. Probiotics are a true symbiotic relationship. Eating a variety of good, lean protiens is key: cashews (tryptophan), fish (GABA) et al.

    Milk thistle and N Acetyl Cystiene are very effective in detox for my liver.

    Some days my anxiety is so high, that I can't drive. Others I can and it great to get away and take care of things. I hate being housebound and my "smart" relatives tell me just to "get out".
  3. greatgran

    greatgran Member

    Thanks for your great reply. I do know I must be so deficient in GABA is one reason for my anxiety. My norepinephrine levels are high which may be one reason I have problems tolerating antidepressants.

    I do try to stick to a high protein diet but wonder how much my body absorbs ..

    Do you take any Rx meds or do you use herbs, supplements and diet? The only Rx med I am on is xanax , my choice. Have been offered many but the side effects were to bad.

    Doesn't it feel great when you can get out and do some things? I know I too hate being housebound.

    God Bless,
  4. gapsych

    gapsych New Member

    "There are two root causes that are under scrutiny with the above symptoms:

    1) Nutritional deficiency: protiens -> amino acids -> neurotransmitters (serotonin, GABA, norepinephrine)

    2) Die-off toxicity: Dead bacteria, viruses and fungus (yeasts) pollute the brain. The liver is the most significant detox organ of the body."

    In all my years of training in psychology, I have never heard of the above causing anxiety. Do you have any studies that might support this?

    Anxiety, depression, et. al. are neurological conditions.



  5. ilovepink4

    ilovepink4 Member

    Great Gran, I was thinking about asking this very same question just last night. I am mostly bedbound/housebound...the only place i am comfortable is reclining back in my bed....

    i believe i am always depressed and was before i got sick...most of my life...i don't do well on anti depressants...the side effects are not so good....weight cravings...and horrible, awful, terrible, fire hot sweating....that is the worst symptom of all...but most a/d's make me feel like i am going to blow up....make me anzxious....

    i have terrible anxiety around groups of people talking, noise from loud tv's, kids fighting , etc...

    I feel so alone because it seems like the majority of ppl with fibro, still get up and get dressed and do stuff around their homes or have jobs!

    i don't leave our house for months at a time in the winter...i feel so much worse in the winter...

    when i do have to go somewhere, it is a big DEAL....i fret all day about "how many more hours do i have to rest before I have to start to get ready"....and then i am miserable while getting ready because i don't want to go is just too exhausting...and it will hurt later when i lay down and relax...then the pain washes over my entire body...yikes.

    i don't sleep at night...most nights i go to bed between 3am and 5 am...and my best, deepest sleep is at about could be that that is the only time i don't have any responsibilites....there is someone here at our house so help my daughter (who is disabled) and the boys are at school....i am up and down all night with my daughter, turning her or getting her a drink, or covering her back up....or cooling her off...

    so, i really feel like a the exception....i get so excited when i read posts from others like me....i wish there was a special board for the matter what your problem is....
  6. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    I tried 7 different antidepressants. No help either. Lots of nasty out-of-body experiences and sexual side effects and "syncope" (passing out) got me an expensive visit to the ER. Wellbutin can cause syncope.

    Pharma grade GABA (not synthetic) passes over the BBB (blood-brain-barrier) a little. Theanine help more of it cross over. Taurine helps too. These are all broken down protiens (amino acids). Food basically.
    Do a web search: GABA and a Korean probiotic called Kim Chee. Make GABA in the colon. Permanent fix? Maybe. Until you take another antibiotic and kill it off.

    The best natural source of GABA is fish, it really is brain food. Fish oil (Dr. Mercola and Dr Amen say Krill Oil) is the first supplement to get on with any mental disorders.

  7. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    I've had 5 courses in Psych and many years of dealing with a depressed son. My favorite psychaitrist is Dr. Daniel Amen. Dr Amen always starts his patients off with fish oils, amino acid boosted supplements. He will add an RX too, but weans the patients off of them.

    The die-off toxicity is called a herxheimer reaction, my fatigue doc Dr. Kelly Boulden told me about them but they are also discussed in Dr. T's book From Fatigued to Fantastic 3rd Ed.

    "And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." Rev 22:2
    "The fruit will be for food and the leaves for healing." Eze 47:12

    Nature has all the answers, we just need to find them.
  8. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    I've found so many answers to my hard questions in the Scriptures. I like helps me look up scriptures.
    'Call to Me and I will answer you, and I will tell you great and mighty things, which you do not know.' Jer 33:3

    I have given every green plant for food" Gen 1:30

    Looking forward to the 1000 reign of Christ: Isa 11, Isa 65 and Rev 20 where there will be no CFS, FM et al. Reading this gives me hope.
  9. munch1958

    munch1958 Member

    I fail to understand why the medical profession does not do any kind of testing BEFORE placing a person on antidepressants! They don't bother to test people to see if neurotransmitters are out of whack. Most of psychiatry has absolutely NO BASIS of any kind in verifiable SCIENCE.

    But the good news is now there is a SECOND thing that can be added to the first medication when that first medication is not working! Every time I see that commercial for the second AD to take when the first AD doesn't work I bust out laughing. It's now called "augmentation".

    Augmenters include:
    Ritalin, Provigil, Estrogen, Thyroid (T3), Lithium, Buspar, Pindolol (beta blocker), Viagra, Inositol, SAMe, EPA, Stimulant and Dopamine Agonists like Mirapex, Anticonvulsants, and Folate.

    "Why antidepressants don't work for so many"

    "More than half the people who take antidepressants for depression never get relief. Why? Because the cause of depression has been oversimplified and drugs designed to treat it aim at the wrong target, according to new research from the Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine. The medications are like arrows shot at the outer rings of a bull's eye instead of the center."

    "The Depressing News About Antidepressants

    Studies suggest that the popular drugs are no more effective than a placebo. In fact, they may be worse."

    "Here's some depressing recent medical news: Antidepressants don't work. What's even more depressing is that the pharmaceutical industry and Food and Drug Administration (FDA) have deliberately deceived us into believing that they DO work."

    Excerpt from:

    "Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science"

    "when widely prescribed antidepressants such as Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil were revealed to be no more effective than a placebo for most cases of depression;"

    Based on my personal experience, AD's had no benefit for me. Yet I was given all kinds of "happy pills" by the hundreds of doctors that I saw for very real symptoms of tick borne illnesses. One of my holistic docs ran a test done by NeuroScience which showed my neurotransmitters were NORMAL! My problem was low IGF-1 or adult growth hormone deficiency. By taking the actual hormone that my body does not produce many of my symptoms were alleviated.
  10. gapsych

    gapsych New Member

    If you could point me to scientific studies that show neurological conditions are symptoms and not the problem, I would appreciate it.

    I am not impressed with Dr. T. but that is another topic.

    Your faith seems very important to you and you have opinions how nature has all the answers. That's fine.

    But I am looking for the science behind your statements. You can "feel" that something is "right" but to be realistic it is not backed up by science.

    I really liked Dr. Amen when he first published studies on GWS. After that he has turned away from science. He is a smart man but got sidetracked.

    What kind of doctor is Dr. Kelly Boulden?

  11. gapsych

    gapsych New Member

    If ADs did not work for you, then you most likely did not have depression but instead a Vitamin D deficiency and/ or hypothyroidism which can look like depression to the unskilled eye.

    These conditions are not depression but can certainly make it worse.

    What a relief it must be that you never had depression. Believe me, it is horrendous and I find it somewhat disrespectful when people say that oh I had a bit of depression and it was cured by so and so without really knowing if you were clinically depressed or somewhat down. It's the same as someone saying to CFS people, oh yes, I am also tired.

    I can say the same thing about ADs as I have done my homework. They have saved my life.

  12. Cinderbug

    Cinderbug New Member

    YES, housebound for 4 years...I do go out for doctor visits then am down for days...not fun
    Yes.. Anxiety cam e with the CFS...but is getting better

  13. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    Avandia is the latest unsupervised joke pharma for review.

    Amen has lots of patients. I've seen ppl reading his books at various public places. His info has helped me whereas "placebo" AD don't. Scientific study of one. Amen has not gotten sidetracked. His book sales are great. Must be helping ppl. That branch of science is called statistics.

    Why an anti-supplement person is wasting time on this forum makes me wonder why you are sidetracked. What is your motive? Do you work for a pharma?

    Pharmacopia= greek for witchcraft. Another reason I hate pharma.

  14. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Active Member

    >>>If ADs did not work for you, then you most likely did not have depression<<<

    Hi Gap - I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. ADs do not always work for some people suffering from depression. Vitamin and mineral deficiences are known causes of depression. There was a case years ago in the UK of a teenage girl who ended up in a pysch hospital several times for severe depression and suicide attempts. Meds and therapy did not work. A psychiatrist finally realized that the cause of her depression was a deficiency of one of the B vitamins. As long as she took a supplement each day, she remained depression free. It took a couple of years for anyone to figure this out.

    Some people find that therapy works great for them and leads to their depression ending. Does this then mean that they didn't really have depression - of course not.

    ADs for some people like yourself, are a life saver. For others, they don't do a darn thing. Drug trials have shown this many times over. I think it was Prozac that had to go through five trials before they saw the results that they wanted to see.
  15. gapsych

    gapsych New Member

    I am not against supplements per se if there is scientific evidence that they work. But then they are not considered alternative treatments.

    I guess I am confused about your statement on statistics. Personal anecdotes are not statistics.

    My motive is that I want to provide information and support and that is important when it comes to making consumer decisions. As a consumer I want to know all sides of an issue and not be afraid of processing information from all "sides".

    I don't just post about this subject.

    Yes, I work for Big Pharma. The pay is good. :>).

    It's not my intention to argue this subject. I have said my piece and people can take from it what they want.

    I think it is time to get back on topic, okay?

  16. gapsych

    gapsych New Member

    You make a good point and I think I mentioned this in an above thread. There are some people who have intractable depression which does not respond to to ADs. But that is a big difference than stating ADs don't work.

    As far as b vitamins helping someones depression, well I think that person had a vitamin B deficiency and not depression. I had a vitamin B deficiency, received shots and it did nothing but make my vitamin B levels normal. Again this is an anecdote.

    Someone may have depression and talk therapy can work very well. But they do not have clinical depression. Studies show that the best combination is meds. with talk therapy.

    Can you point me to the many drug trials that show many times over that they don't do a darn thing. The study that supposedly shows that ADs don't work as Placebos has been misinterpreted by the press and lay public.

    Yes, many medications have to go through many trials. Not necessarily because they don't work but the fact that a study's methods are not valid, so another study is done keeping this in mind. This is just the way science works.

    Look at XMRV. It's going to take many trials before we understand what is going on.

  17. gapsych

    gapsych New Member

  18. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Active Member

    Yes, the girl suffered from depression. The cause of the depression was a vitamin B deficiency. Depression is depression no matter what the cause is. Vitamin and mineral deficiencies can lead to depression. If you want to choose to believe otherwise, so be it :)

  19. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    I can't and won't allow any of us to be called that...esp by Big Pharma.

    I suspect spying by Big Pharma in a technique called "Data Mining". Find a supplement or technique that works, get it into an RX so they can make big money.

    They are lobbying to make supplements RX only.

  20. AllWXRider

    AllWXRider New Member

    You don't trust Amen but he is a true practicitioner, AD don't always work. You don't have a license to say that they do. Amen has pioneered the use of SPECT imaging. "How do you know unless you look" he often quotes.

    You don't have the authority to state that B deficiency or D is not depression. Only a licensed practicitioner can label a person as depressed. I was deemed depressed. AD don't work for me. I've had all the talk therapy too.

    Even Big Pharma says that AD work in about 40%, so there is an RX to help the RX. I forget the name of that new drug.

    There are 50 neurotransmitters according to my daughter's Nutrition book. Too bad you didn't take any courses in nutrition; just Psych. Only 5 had been studied. We only know about a few of them. Much to be only scratches the surface.

    If a study's methods are not valid, then the study needs to be trashed and the product pulled, customers and insurance companies refunded. ObamaCare shouldn't pay for it either. In your opinion Placebo / drug studies are mis-interpreted. Data is screened and skewed. The lawyers are eating this up. Dr. Mercola (licensed practitioner) says that the Avandia drug data was screened and skewed...but even after the fines, they profited billions.

    You can keep your drugs. I've tried them, I don't like them. Don't force vaccines on our young daughters, our children. Leave my decisions on supplement use to me and my lisenced MD. Respect my freedom and the freedom of those on this forum.