Uses of Vit C and B12/ Attn Rich

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by deliarose, Jul 28, 2008.

  1. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    I just came across a paper from Melvyn Werbach MD from 2000. AT that point, he was with UCLA School of Medicine.

    Anyhow, he discusses research suggesting B12 and Vit C have the ability to reverse red blood cell membrane abnormalities seen in CFS and therefore improve blood capillary flow.

    I believe deformed (enlarged?) blood cells are common in CFS. My blood work shows this.

    In the research Werbach quotes, the PWCs were given 15 grams IV of ascorbic acid.

    I wonder if that's one of the benefits that Cathcart (and Lisa P) got from taking massive Vit C doses.

    What do you think?

    Here's a link to the paper:

    [This Message was Edited on 07/28/2008]
  2. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

  3. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

  4. Slayadragon

    Slayadragon New Member

    This doesn't answe the question, but 15 g of IV ascorbic acid would be a whole lot.

    The usual dose is 12.5-50 mg of IV ascorbic acid.

    15 g is certainly a reasonable oral amount.
  5. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, deliarose.

    I think Werbach was citing Majid Ali's work on vitamin C and RBCs, and Les Simpson's work on B12 and RBCs.

    I think Ali was the first person to publish on oxidative stress in CFS. He looked at live-cell RBCs in a light microscope, gave the person a high dosage of IV vitamin C, and then looked at the cells again. He found improvement in their shapes and attributed it to correcting the oxidative stress. I think he was right about that. Since his work, there have been quite a few papers that have reported on evidence for oxidative stress in CFS, and it's now probably one of the best established biochemical features.

    Les Simpson (in New Zealand) used a fixative on the RBCs to maintain their shape and used an electron microscope to examine them. He also found deformed RBCs in CFS, and one of the things he found to help this was B12.

    I think both these observations are consistent with the Glutathione Depletion--Methylation Cycle Block hypothesis for CFS, which hadn't been formulated at the time these men did their work. Glutathione depletion is what causes the chronic state of oxidative stress in CFS. A block in B12 metabolism hinders methionine synthase, and this leads to a vicious circle that produces glutathione depletion and oxidative stress. So it makes sense that these two vitamins would be helpful to the red blood cells.

    However, I think that in most cases a combination of B12 and active folate is needed to lift the chronic methylation cycle block and allow glutathione to come up on a permanent basis. As far as I know, the effects that Ali and Simpson produced were temporary, and would disappear when the vitamin treatment was stopped.

    I do think that Bob Cathcart probably did receive benefit for his RBC shape from the high daily doses of vitamin C that he took, among other benefits. I gather from Lisa's post that her vitamin C dosages have been smaller, so I'm not sure whether they have helped her in that way.

  6. deliarose

    deliarose New Member

    I think he was referencing Mukerjhee and Simpson.

    Anyway, I appreciate your explanation.

    I think you're saying that the root cause goes back to a methylation cycle block and glutathione depletion.

    But couldn't Vit C IVs or large oral doses be a useful adjunct to improve well-being as one addresses the underlying causes?

    The recovery process, as you know is a slow one, so I for one, can use all the help I can get.

    Of course, it's all finances permitting...but if one could improve microcirculation with mega doses of Vit C, it might even speed things along, no, esp. because of Vit C's anti-viral properties.

    A two-for-one if you like.

  7. richvank

    richvank New Member

    Hi, delia.

    Over the years, I think I've read two reports from people who said high-dose vitamin C cured them of CFS. I don't think it cures most people by itself, but yes, I do think it can make a contribution.