Virus, bacteria, or toxin?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by ljimbo42, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. ljimbo42

    ljimbo42 Active Member

    I have a bacterial overgrowth in my digestive tract determined by CDSA (comprehensive digestive stool analysis) that is clearly causing many of my symptoms, if not all of them.

    When a foreign agent gets into the body, weather it’s a virus, bacteria or a toxin. The immune system responds by attacking it. It does not have to be a living organism for the immune system to attack it and create an immune response.

    It can be a toxin, as well as a living organism. As long as it doesn’t belong in the body, it will be attacked. The immune response can be mild to severe and anywhere in between, depending on the toxin, bacteria, or virus.

    The stronger the immune response the greater the physical symptoms from that response. Immune response symptoms to virus, bacteria or toxins include, fever, chills, body aches and pains, flu-like symptoms, mild to debilitating fatigue, headache, etc.

    Remember the H1N1 virus that killed so many people a few years ago? It wasn’t the virus that killed people, it was the immune response to the virus, what’s called a “cytokine storm”.

    Which is an immune response that creates an overwhelming inflammatory reaction (inflammation). I am not saying I have all the answers to cfs/fm, because I don’t, but I might have some. What I am suggesting is that for SOME OF US, toxins from an overgrowth of bad bacteria in our digestive tract could be getting into our blood.

    That would cause an immune reaction causing, some, most or all of our symptoms (in some cases). This could explain why no bacteria or virus can be found in our blood or cells that causes the immune reactions in most cfs/fm patients. The overgrowth of bad bacteria in the digestive tract could also explain the symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome that some of us have.

    If the bacteria causing the immune reaction is in the digestive tract not the blood or the cells of our body’s. It could be the toxins from the bacteria causing the immune reaction, not the bacteria itself.

    Dr. David Bell suggests “There is a persistence of cytokine secretion that is likely responsible for the persistence of ME/CFS symptoms.” "Cytokine secretion", as Dr. bell worded it, is an immune reaction to a foreign body or substance.

    Which just means that the immune system is over-reacting to something. Since no viruses or bacteria can be found to cause the immune reaction in most patients. It makes sense to me the next likely culprits are toxins coming from an overgrowth of unhealthy bacteria in the digestive system.

    You will decide what makes the most sense to you. I am just passing along what makes most sense to me. : ) “Together we can do what we can’t do alone” All the best- JIM
  2. IanH

    IanH Active Member

    "It makes sense to me the next likely culprits are toxins coming from an overgrowth of unhealthy bacteria in the digestive system. " YES, well established by Dr. John Chia but this is a consequence of the immune dysfunction.

    Just because a pathogen cannot be identified does not mean there is not one causing a problem. Also there have been many different pathogens identified in ME/CFS in different cohorts:
    HHV6, HHV7, HHV5, PVB19, HERV-K18 as well as various entero-viruses and entero-bacteria.

    What we do not know is whether they are the primary cause or a secondary effect from the immune dysfunction. all evidence points to consequence (and therefore a secondary cause of some symptoms) not primary cause.

    One of the most consistent findings is low natural killer cell cytotoxicity
    NK cytotoxic activity is significantly decreased in CFS/ME, Additionally, the CFS/ME patients have significantly lower numbers of CD56 bright CD16- NK cells.

    Another consistent finding in people with ME/CFS is high levels of IFN-gamma (Interferon-gamma), a pro-inflammatory cytokine and various pro-inflammatory interleukines which all cause low grade, non-CRP inflammation. No CRP indicator is why for a long time it was not believed that ME was inflammatory.

    The gut flora imbalance is common but does not occur in all cases of ME/CFS. when it does occur the symptoms are clear, symptoms which are like IBS. Some studies have shown the presence of "leaky gut" which can be helped using high quality Bovine colostrum + melatonin. (Melatonin is a major gut healer in our body) and selected pro-biotics. However, even though this can be very successful in changing the gut flora and gut symptoms the ME/CFS does not go away. John Chia created a pharmacological preparation called "equilibrant" which some people have found helpful in removing gut pathogens and reducing symptoms but not a lot of people have found this successful.

    The persistently high IFN-gamma causes mitochondrial membrane depolarization which in turn affects energy production (ATP synthesis) and glutathione production within the mitochondria. This in turn leads to poor ROS (reactive oxygen species) clearance. A toxic load produced naturally by the energy system in the mitochondria. When severe, this leads to MCS and a hypersensitivity to common aerial and food borne toxins. However most people with ME/CFS have some degree of toxin hypersensitivity. I know because it my job to identify this in people with ME/CFS when they are not aware of it, in order that they may better identify these triggers of malaise.

    High levels of IFN-gamma in viral infections such as the flu are why you crash and feel weak and sick. It may be a deliberate mechanism to slow us down when we are infected. However in ME/CFS something in the system is causing persistently high IFN-gamma as well as low NKC function. We simply cannot get rid of the "irritant"

    The upshot is we know that viruses, bacteria and toxins are all involved in the symptoms but they all appear to be a consequence of the immune dysfunction. However the pattern of immune dysfunction is typical of a viral problem. Sometimes known as a "super-antigen" which can be formed from persistent stealth viral infection like that caused by retroviruses.

    Most evidence now points to an immune system disease in TRUE ME. Bearing in mind that the diagnosis is a still very unreliable.

    [This Message was Edited on 02/26/2013]
  3. ljimbo42

    ljimbo42 Active Member

    Thank you for your reply, and I respect your views. I want to say first and foremost that I don't believe my views apply all cfs/fm cases. I do think they could hold true for some.

    My view is that the toxins from the pathogenic bacteria in the gut cause the immune dysfunction. One toxin found in the outer membrane of gram negative bacteria, such as pseudemonas aeruginsa, (the one found overgrowing in me) is lipopolysaccharide, which produces a strong immune response.

    Dr. kenny de meirleir believes hydrogen sulfide is another toxin creating a lot of cfs problems. There could be many more as well. I also think that the mito. dyfunction is caused by the toxins disrupting the biochemical processes in the cells. Further that the partial methylation block is also caused by the toxins.

    The toxins create an enourmous amount of oxidative stress in the body. The oxidative stress from the toxins slowly lower glutathione levels creating a partial methylation block. Also this could explain why many people with cfs get it rate after a big stressor of some kind.

    Stress is known to lower glutathione levels and a bad viral or bacterial infection can devastate glutathione levels. In fact, in my case my cfs started after a bad viral infection when I was 18, 35 years ago. This is true for many with cfs.

    Which ties rate into rich van konynenburg's theory of glutathione depletion and a partial methylation block as the actual cause of cfs symptoms. So it could be a single viral infection, bacterial infection, birth of a child, loss of a loved one or other health issues, etc. that trigger glutathione depletion and a methylation block causing cfs.

    It could also be that many stressors over time create the glutathione depletion, methylation block. Such as I mentioned above, many viral infections, bacterial infections etc. I also think there is some kind of genetic component, that could vary from person to person explaining why cfs so often runs in families.

    I also think the th-1, th-2 imbalance commonly seen in many cfs cases is often caused by the toxins from the gut. This could explain the reactivation of many of the viruses you mentioned and others. The high IFN-gamma levels could be the reaction from the lps (lipopolysaccharides) or other toxins from the gut.

    Lps have been shown to cause many pro-inflammatory cytokine reactions in the immune system. Here is one study making the link-

    These are my views, as they are now. I am researching almost every day though and I am sure I will learn more moving forward. Thank you for your views and I welcome your feedback. All the best-Jim