What a profound little paragraph for these times....

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Gingareeree, Feb 26, 2009.

  1. Gingareeree

    Gingareeree New Member

    "You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for,another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and the other half get the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they worked for,that my dear friend is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." ~Dr. Adrian Rogers,1931-2005~
  2. rockgor

    rockgor Well-Known Member

    This is patently obvious to the most casual observer.

    Did Rogers originate this or was he quoting somebody?

  3. Gingareeree

    Gingareeree New Member

    Don't know the answer to your question. This was something I recv'd in my mail. At any rate I thought as you...this was spot on!! Jeanne
  4. TwoCatDoctors

    TwoCatDoctors New Member

    Oprah's show yesterday was Lisa Ling talking to the camps of people in tents around the U.S. who have lost their homes, their cars and everything. The one man was taking mass transit every week to apply for jobs. They were parents of children who were around 35 and didn't want to burden their kids in another state by letting them know they were homeless. You know many are close to that and it's only one illness away or the loss of a major paying job that can do it--and it can be any one of us tomorrow, so I hope we continue to have a heart.

    I worked all my life (since I was in high school) and went on SSD a couple years ago due to permanent injuries that left me mobility disabled, among other disabilities. Now at 57 I don't consider myself as "taking" or getting something for nothing when I worked and contributed to the system all my life. But some people think the disabled are "taking" from the system too.
  5. Gingareeree

    Gingareeree New Member

    I think that the writers' intent was to show how Gov't expansion(entitlemnt programs)by way of over taxation is a poor idea. Eventually,those who are carrying most of the weight will just quit,and then where will our country be? Gov't can't operate without taxpayers. Most programs are started with a good intent,however they tend to grow out of control.I have a good and generous heart. I choose to believe that most people would willingly give to their brothers in need. I think the gov't forces us to contribute to what they deem important is not the way to go. A lot of the mess we're in now is do to the sense of everyone has a right to have a home nevermind if they can't pay for it..now the Gov't (taxpayers)is bailing them out. I really don't think this author was speaking about those like yourself who have worked and contributed. More the ones' who play the system.
  6. therealmadscientist

    therealmadscientist New Member

    These people who think they don't have to work because others will do the work for them........are we talking about the Marie Antoinettes and handsome CEO's, or are we talking about poor people?
  7. Gingareeree

    Gingareeree New Member

    Touche'..Good point!
  8. rockgor

    rockgor Well-Known Member

    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
    willing to work and give to those who would not.

    Thomas Jefferson

    Here is Jefferson's epitaph which he wrote himself.

    Here was buried Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of American
    Independence, Of the Statute of Virginia for religious freedom & Father of the
    University of Virginia.

    Doesn't mention that he was the third President.

  9. jole

    jole Member

    would not have happened like it did if not for greed....and should not be blamed on any one President! There were many who had a part in it....outsourcing work to other countries was the biggest mistake, in my opinion. You talk about the lack of jobs....there would be jobs if they'd been kept here....greed!

    But for the average person who works hard and climbs the ladder to success, their success should not be taken away by the government who is spending their money!

    I am not happy either about paying in for years for SS and now seeing medicare in the throes of possibly being cut...it's not enough to live on the way it is, by the time we pay back for their insurance.

    But back to the basic statement....I agree wholeheartedly. Yes, there are still many people willing to work if the job is available. But we all know of a LOT of people who have lived off the system for years and are totally content to do so...and live a much better life than most of us who worked hard for a living.

    My daughter is a physical therapist, and had a gal call her at work wanting to know if they were hiring. She gave her the name and number of her boss, and sounded sooooo excited, said she would call right away. That was days ago and he still hasn't heard from her. He feels she is on unemployment, and has to apply (and be turned down) for a job, and once she found out they were hiring, wouldn't call back. So........ how many people are working minimum wage jobs to keep her fed and clothed better than themselves????

    Just my opinion. Good discussion!
  10. springwater

    springwater Well-Known Member

    but from where i see it, President Obama is responding to the need of the hour. And it is stomach churning to think of some of the uber rich still wallowing in luxury with their yatchs and mansions while the majority of the populace find it hard to feed themselves not because they dont want to work but because there are no jobs. How there came to be no jobs, why there are no jobs, is a different issue. The fact is there are no jobs. And people are suffering.

    it will not kill someone who can afford it, to do with a little less than they are used to. It will certainly kill a person if they starve to death because there is no money. It is already killing peoples spirits the way the economy is right now..people who have always been working, supporting kids, now at a loose ends, through no fault of their own. It is evident from the many posts on the board. It is not right to punish the majority of those honest hard working people, because of the crime of some unethical bodies who abuse the system put there in the first place to help the needy.

    There were times when men were drafted into the army because they were needed to defend/save the country from peril, well the country is in peril now, and it is their own people who are in danger, it is upto the able bodies persons themselves now to help out the less able bodied (metaphorically speaking). Until the danger is past. And no one is in danger any more.

    This is just the opinion of an outsider, given with an outsiders perpective.

    God Bless

    [This Message was Edited on 02/28/2009]
  11. jole

    jole Member

    Perhaps my post looked like I oppose the rich helping....I do not...if they had paid in their fair amount of taxes over the years instead of dodging into unknown "loopholes" and evading altogether, perhaps things would be a little brighter. Just an example of the greed issue...

    Along with all the other CEO's, companies using the bailout money for parties, vacations, etc. That's why the bailout money to me is a lost cause. The majority of it will not be saving jobs....it will be wasted.

    Perhaps the Washington elite should start giving first, to set an example....it may not be so hard for others to follow suit....but I doubt that will happen, in either party, do you? And I agree, many people are suffering and losing jobs, in my family also. But they feel like I do, that the plan in action is not going to solve the problem, no matter how well intentioned it is. What is $25 a week to those without jobs? That doesn't keep a roof over their heads. And before this crisis hit, there were jobs out there, but still many people taking welfare in this area instead of working because it was the easy way.

    There are many making $150,000 who deserve every penny of it, and who probably give a lot to charity. I only wish I did so I could....but much of it still comes down to the choices we made along the pathway of life, and honest, hard work should be rewarded. The key words are honest and hard....
    [This Message was Edited on 03/01/2009]
  12. mezombie

    mezombie Member

    What exactly is the "Washington elite"?

    Are we talking about the people who are making policy? Here's information on their salaries and perks:


    Here's information on salaries and perks of CEOs of major corporations:


    Notice a difference?

    Most people in Washington, DC are civil servants or work for non-profits, by the way. Many could be making much more but chose public service because they actually wanted to give back, and they are -- in the form of lower wages for comparable work in the private sector.

    Let's stick to the facts, OK?
  13. TwoCatDoctors

    TwoCatDoctors New Member

    I used to work in a large law firm and quite a few partners went into public service--from high ranking judges to legislators to mayors, etc. The civil servants aren't just in it to give back--there are paybacks, not cash, they get that are valuable. Power is a big consideration, and also connections that are made that can be life long and help when you go throughout life. Retiring is another one and looking ahead can get them that mega paying corporate job as a consultant somewhere. In fact, when they become legislators they are molding the way things are run and much depends on who gets their ear and people they have met and known for a long time can get through their door faster than you or I. They meet powerful lobbyists that can pave the way for really good consulting jobs later, they meet higher ranking officials should they seek higher level positions within the government. And for many years the lobbyists were providing those "extras" that eventually got lawmakers--not the lobbyists--in trouble. Also, they get TV time and newspaper time for free.

    Many of the above are automatically provided protection if there is any doubt and you and I don't have that option. Anybody threatens them, protection is provided automatically and the Sheriff is called in to find the person and arrest them --but you and I have to go to the police, file reports, and even seek protective orders through the court. Parking for them at the job is never a problem, but many of us have found it is and some of us even have had to pay for parking at our jobs.

    As to our Congressmen and Representatives in Washington DC, don't forget the free gym they have to use and the free haircuts, the private parking, they have been getting for many years. No, all the perks weren't mentioned on that site.

  14. mezombie

    mezombie Member

    Out-of-Work Financiers Reap Dividends of Seeing the World

    By Joshua Partlow
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Friday, February 27, 2009; Page A01

    RIO DE JANEIRO -- When Deutsche Bank determined that strategist Rod Manalo was, in the merciless language of hard times, "redundant," it was an abrupt and humbling end to a seven-year career in finance.

    But Manalo, 30, has not been trudging the gray streets of London where he was based looking for work. This week, he was in the sun-drenched Brazilian resort city of Florianopolis, taking surfing lessons and dancing in throbbing nightclubs amid Carnival revelers. That was after he had snowboarded in the Alps, golfed in Florida and prepared for a year-long world journey that he expects will take him to the Amazon, Antarctica, Australia and beyond.

    "Decent finance jobs are nonexistent. Few hedge funds and no investment banks are hiring. If I were to find a job, I'd just fear losing it again, would continue to watch markets drop and would expect little or no bonus," said Manalo, who was fired in December from his position as a vice president in risk arbitrage.

    Apart from occasionally watching his investments, he said, "I am fully focused on traveling."

    One byproduct of the economic blood bath of the past several months has been a bumper crop of relatively young and wealthy but out-of-work financiers. Unemployment in the financial sector in the United States doubled from 285,000 in January 2008 to 571,000 last month, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. There are "pink-slip parties" in New York for the newly untethered to mingle and match. Business school applications have soared for those seeking academic shelter.

    But some financial refugees have fanned out around the globe in pursuit of leisure, achievement or to explore something, anything, outside a cubicle's confines. And if a dozen or so lost souls of finance are any indication, many are finding at least a temporary refuge roaming the globe.

    The Brazilian bacchanalian festival of Carnival is just the kind of place to find them. On Sunday, amid thousands of cheering fans, exotic floats and barely clad samba dancers, one investor at a London hedge fund paraded by in a costume somewhere between Roman gladiator and giant chicken.

    Although he still has a job, he is not confident it will last long. And besides, he said, in the office he has almost nothing to do.

    "My industry has basically shut down," said the investor, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid violating company rules. "What is the opportunity cost of traveling? It's basically zero."

    After eight years in finance, Jessica Alberti, 32, said she abandoned her work on emerging markets at a major New York hedge fund in October when people were losing so much money that she now has trouble finding sufficient pejoratives to describe it.

    "It was so negative, it was horrible. It was tense, extremely negative. Miserable," she said. "It was so bleak."

    So after getting her bonus, factoring in the weather and world currencies, and deciding that Europe was too expensive and that she'd already seen Asia, she headed for South America. She planned to be gone until early January, but that quickly changed.

    "Three days in, I got an e-mail from the guy I was dating, saying, 'I met someone.' . . . An e-mail. Nice," she said.

    Since then, it has been a tourism whirlwind, Alberti said, listing her adventures: a Spanish course in Quito, Ecuador, swimming off the Galapagos Islands, hiking to Machu Picchu in Peru, riding a helicopter into the Colombian jungle, touring the salt flats of Bolivia and drinking Argentine wine in Buenos Aires.

    "You were starting to get the idea you weren't going to be paid out the way you used to be," she said. "I felt good about the investments I'd made personally with my money, and I didn't do traveling after college, I went straight to work. And it was something I'd always wanted to do."

    She plans to return briefly to New York to deal with her taxes and refinance her apartment, but then she wants to return to Argentina and start a new life abroad.

    "Right now I don't want to be in New York pedaling my feet. I'd rather look for interesting investments down here," she said.

    Among such Type A tourists, there is often more going on than daiquiri-sipping or hammock-swinging. Take Alex Iscoe, a 28-year-old Toronto native who resigned from Goldman Sachs last May as the financial storm clouds were gathering. Recently, he was in London, hooked up to a machine that simulates the depleted oxygen conditions of high-altitude peaks, part of his training regimen to climb the highest mountain on each of the world's seven continents, something only about 230 people have done.

    "Since I was a teenager, I've always wanted to attempt Mount Everest, and I've never really had a combination of time, money and desire at the same time that would make that a possibility," Iscoe said by phone from Buenos Aires. "The writing was very much on the wall with what was about to happen through the entire industry. . . . It struck me as a very good opportunity to take some time off and accomplish personal goals."

    Iscoe started his training by climbing to the 14,400-foot summit of Mount Rainier in Washington state in July. He followed that with Mount Elbrus in Russia, Mount Aconcagua in Argentina and Mount Vinson Massif in Antarctica, where it reached about 40 degrees below zero without wind chill. "The coldest I have ever been in my entire life," he said.

    He is now plotting to climb Mount McKinley in Alaska, Mount Kosciuszko in Australia, Mount Kilimanjaro in Africa and, of course, Everest. He hopes he can raise money for charity with his feat, and when it is all over in a few months, he will consider what to do for a living.

    "As silly as this may sound, focusing on getting a job, even though it's relatively soon from now -- three or four months -- it's not at all on my mind," Iscoe said. "I have a 29,000-foot mountain to climb."

    Some former financiers have found that a new country can offer the chance to be an entrepreneur rather than a cog in the vast machine. Raphael Rottgen, 36, left his London hedge fund in early 2007 because he was more interested in emerging markets than his investments in Europe. He started by touring the big ones -- China, India and Russia -- but also traveled to Brazil and Argentina. He eventually set up shop in Sao Paulo -- in a country he believes has vast potential.

    "If you think about the things the world needs in the next 100 years, this country has everything -- oil, raw materials, agricultural land," he said of Brazil. "And the country I was living in, Great Britain, has absolutely nothing."

    He eventually started Sagace, which he said is Brazil's first nationwide mortgage broker, now with offices in eight states.

    "Now when I speak to people, most people say to me, 'Oh, my God, you left at the right time,' " he said. "But I wasn't a genius. I had no idea that it would get this bad."

    A more recent refugee from a London hedge fund, who spoke on the condition that he not be identified, resigned last month and fled to Buenos Aires. He plans to be in New York by September to set up his own asset management company, he said, but for the time being, there is no longing for the time-sucking financial grind. He wants to take up polo, study Spanish and enjoy the thriving Buenos Aires night life.

    "You've made a bit of money, but there's also a significant dark side to that business line. When you are voluntarily or involuntarily forced to distance yourself from it, the not-so-pleasant aspects of that business become a bit more obvious," he said. "People talk about soul-destroying jobs, and there's definitely a lot to that, and when they're taken out of that, they do blossom to some sort."

    Staff researcher Robert E. Thomason in Washington contributed to this report.

  15. therealmadscientist

    therealmadscientist New Member

    it would be a lack of imagination. I like the eccentrics characteristic of the Victorian age.
    I don't know, being 231st person to climb the continents highest mountains just doesn't appeal to me. Personally, I'd rather study......umm, the swimming moths my brother saw in Mexico. The first time he saw one, he tried to rescue it while it was fluttering on the surface of a swimming pool. The moth dived to escape him, and emerged elsewhere to fly away.

    Where was I? Oh, yes, interesting thread. Like many on board.

    Guess I'm a little disappointed in the information explosion in that seems that realities are splitting, rather than reality getting more reliable and "real".

    Politically, it seems too many straw men are being created and attacked, and red herrings have grown wings and are everywhere.

    I read last week that there are 25,000 non profit organizations in the San Francisco Bay area. Also, that the majority of official "small businesses" only have one employee and are
    entities such as law partnerships. And some of the poor welfare Eskimos in Alaska are unaware partners of huge corporations.......that use the Eskimos to obtain no bid contracts from USA governments (See, ex-senator Ted Stevens).

    Do I believe all these things I read? Not without more research......that I don't have time or energy to do. What does it mean if these things are true? I don't know.....without more research. sigh.

    I read that honeybees decide on new hive locations by sending out scout bees. They come back, do their dance, and recruit other scout bees to investigate. Eventually, the majority of scouts become convinced on the best new location. So logical, so un-human.LOL

    Cheers, your Mr Mad Bill

    Sometimes I wonder why it is considered a valuable, worthwhile, thing to drop 500 lbs bombs on far away countries, but dropping 500 lb bags of fertilizer on a far away farm considered a foolish waste of money. I don't know. silly me. And I'm not really a total pacifist. What is "work"? What is "money"?

    I know!!! Let's sign one of those Geneva Convention treaties requiring that all bombs contain %50 usable fertilizer!!

    [<i>This Message was Edited on 03/02/2009</i>]
    [<i>This Message was Edited on 03/02/2009</i>]
    [This Message was Edited on 03/02/2009]
  16. rockgor

    rockgor Well-Known Member

    I tried to look up swimming moths. Sounds kinda like an oxymoron: e.g., "fierce rabbit".
    Anyway, I found some swimming moth sites, but couldn't open them.

    Also found a reference to sea moths: little-studied benthic fish. "Benthic" seems to mean
    the fish live at the bottom of a body of water.

    Also found, "Michael Phelps suspended for 3 moths over bong photograph".

    Funny you should mention bombs and fertilizer as an either-or situation. The two are
    often combined, especially by terrorists.

    Ammonium nitrate is an artificial fertilizer (as you know). Mixed with fuel oil it
    makes an explosive. Timothy McVeigh used 2 tons of ammonium nitrate to
    bomb the federal building in Oklahoma City.

    Maybe that's why you put "usable fertilizer" in your post.

    James Burke said in one of his books that the modern world could not produce enough
    food without artificial fertilizers.

  17. mezombie

    mezombie Member

    The article I posted caught my attention.

    Speaking of lack of imagination, why can't some of these out-of-work financiers spend some of their time (and money) helping out those less fortunate than themselves?

    Is that just too distasteful a thought for them?

    And when I say "less fortunate", I'm not talking about myself. Like others who have posted, I worked hard and as long as I possibly could before going on disability. I hated the thought; I actually cried at my SSDI hearing.

    There are many organizations whose mission it is to build affordable housing, help people get and keep jobs, etc. They need able-bodied people and financial donations to continue this work.
  18. Rafiki

    Rafiki New Member

    "You cannot legislate the rich into fiscal responsibility by legislating the poor out of basic needs. What one person receives as profit, many persons must toil long and hard for at minimum wage. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else and those who dodge their taxes, burden others with their share. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them - with their blood, sweat and tears - and the other half get the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they worked for as corporate profit, that my dear friend is about the end of any nation. You can only multiply wealth for so long until the system collapses."
  19. therealmadscientist

    therealmadscientist New Member

    Whoops! I think I need to apologize for hijacking this serious post. Just sort of started having fun. Maybe I should deleted, except I can only delete one half of conversation. And late now. Mr Bill

    Truly inspired! I don't think you helped me with my confusion, but you have kept me laughing for a day!LOL

    Rock, I tried looking up swimming moths also, but no luck. A lot of swimming beatles with "plastrons" (a new word I learned) to help with breathing.

    Just to be sure, I checked with my brother, and yes, they were beige colored, medium large moths. Maybe we'll be lucky and discover a new species.

    Oh, I may get a chance to see them myself. My brother is renting the place for a year and invited me down for a week sometime undecided in May. In Puerto Adventuras, south of CanCun. I'm very much looking forward to spending hours in the tidal pool. No vacations for several years except for Burning Man event.

    Your mr Bill

    Oh, I guess I should have been more precise about "usable" fertilizer.

    [<i>This Message was Edited on 03/04/2009</i>]
    [<i>This Message was Edited on 03/06/2009</i>]
    [This Message was Edited on 03/06/2009]
  20. Rafiki

    Rafiki New Member

    I'm so glad you liked it. I think my rewrite is completely true.

    When are we leaving for Puerto Adventuras?

    la casa de su hermano es mi casa,


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