What 's opinons on these Chinese herbs for cleansing?

Discussion in 'Fibromyalgia Main Forum' started by PaulMark, Aug 24, 2003.

  1. PaulMark

    PaulMark New Member

    what do you all think: do we need the whey protein isolates? and see jim clements of Total Health Temple Main. theories on if our bodies even break down immunocals etc with lack of ATP production, and do you think these chinese herbs bythis lady would help
    what about gall bladder cleanses

    This lady is cert. Acunp. Like you and has studied chincese med like you,

    2. After liver cleansing see her recommened chinese herbs, What’s your opinon on gall bladder flushes? I tried Hulda clarks grapefruit juice epson salts olive oil about 2 yrs. Ago diahreaa all nite I thought I was going to die, Cheney recommends castor oil on cloth sleep 8 hrs. 2-3 times during a wk with heating pad, says CFS patients tolerate better.

    3. Jim clements of total health tmeple maintenance has hypotheseis on undenated milk whey protein ie immocals etc and if the CFS bodies are breaking down the protein read **

    Conquering Chronic Health Problems Without Drugs or Surgery
    Liver cleansing, gallstone removal, gallbladder flush, estrogen dominance, infertility, menopause, PMS,
    Tai Chi alternative, allergies, arthritis, depression, insomnia

    Julia Chang, M.Sc. jchang@sensiblehealth.com

    I have learned from personal experience that a weak liver can be the cause of many chronic health problems. Gallbladder problems, bad breath, constant fatigue, sleep disorders, heart palpitations, poor memory, skin problems, poor complexion, allergies, arthritis, thyroid problems, frequent numbness in the extremities, frequent infection and fainting are a few examples of what may result when the liver is stressed.. Having suffered from these disorders for more than two decades, I sought help from both medical doctors and traditional Chinese medicine practitioners but my problems persisted. Western medicine did not offer much help to me in addressing chronic health problems and traditional Chinese medicine lacks an understanding of hormones. I have B.Sc. and M.Sc. degrees in chemistry and had worked for more than 6 years in the chemistry laboratory of a large hospital in Toronto, Canada. I also have strong personal interest reinforced by family tradition in Chinese herbal medicine. I decided to treat myself with both Chinese and Western approaches, using one to complement the other. Through a combination of Chinese herbs, diet control and regular exercise, I gradually overcame most of these health problems. I would like to share my experience with others who may have similar chronic health problems.

    At first I tried several commonly used liver cleansing herbs such as dandelion, chrysanthemum and Swedish Bitters. Dandelion and chrysanthemum were too weak. Swedish Bitters helped for about 3 weeks but my condition became actually worse because there are 3 herbs in it which contain plant estrogens. I searched Chinese herbal medicine literature (including some ancient Chinese texts) on liver remedies. Several herbs are mentioned as beneficial to the liver including Coptis, Gentian, Self-Heal and Scutellaria. Chinese Gentian (Lung-tan Tsao) has been known for thousands of years to be useful in the treatment of fever, rheumatism and general debility. It is also said to benefit the liver, aid digestion, strengthen the memory and give lightness and elasticity to the body.

    I *****recalled my uncle's very postitive experience with the herb Chinese Gentian and decided to try it. From my research, I knew that the Chinese herb Bupleurum increases "energy flow" in the liver. I decided to use a combination of Chinese Gentian and Bupleurum prepared in an alcoholic tincture. I reasoned that alcohol is a better carrier than water for the herbs through the liver because the liver detoxifies water-insoluble toxins for which alcohol is a better solvent. Within a few months of using this mixture in conjunction with daily morning exercise and diet control,i experienced improvement in , arthritic pain, stiffness and improved quality of sleep. This improvement was gradual but steady.

    I then came across information on apple juice fasting and olive oil/lemon juice liver and gallbladder cleansing. I decided to give it a try. The result was dramatic. After just the first cleanse, my pains, alergies and arthritis all disappeared. Apparently, malic acid in apple juice is excellent in dissolving the stagnant bile accumulated in the liver. I was really amazed by the amount of stagnant bile driven out by the apple juice. Details of the apple juice fasting and olive oil/lemon juice cleansing procedures are given in gallbladder flushing.

    After my experience, a friend of mine who had gallstones for years decided to try this liver and gallbladder cleansing procedure. She did not get any result the first time. There was one difference between her procedure and mine. She did not use the Chinese Gentian and Bupleurum tincture before the cleansing, like I did. I reasoned she probably had a congested liver (many people with gallstones are likely to have congested livers) which made it difficult for the apple juice to penetrate. She took my advice and used the Chinese Gentian and Bupleurum tincture for about one month before her second cleansing. This time it was successful.

    ****I have subsequently prepared the Chinese Gentian and Bupleurum tincture in commercial form (called "Chinese Bitters"). For certain conditions such as gallstone problems or absence of gallbladder (removal by surgery), it is best used in conjunction with another herbal tincture called Coptis which stimulates bile flow. Both these tinctures are available exclusively from Prime Health Products ,

    Restoring my liver health

    Liver is the most important organ for hormone regulation. Because of my weak liver, I had severe hormone imbalance resulting in many "women's problems". Although the Chinese medicine practitioner my combined knowledge of clinical chemistry and Chinese herbs.

    Liver cleansing

    The liver is the most important organ for hormone regulation. Because of my weak liver, I had severe hormone imbalance resulting in many "women's problems". Although the Chinese medicine practitioner correctly diagnosed my congested liver condition, his treatment actually made my problems worse! He prescribed several herbs including Dong Quei, licorice and ginseng which contain plant estrogens. Although these had beneficial effects initially because they improved my blood circulation, the plant estrogens eventually aggrevated my hormone imbalance problems. I realized Chinese medicine does not understand hormones and conventional medicine also offers no help for my chronic liver congestion problems. I therefore decided to treat myself, using my combined knowledge of clinical chemistry and Chinese herbs.

    3. Jim clements of total health tmeple maintenance has hypotheseis on undenated milk whey protein ie immocals etc and if the CFS bodies are breaking down the protein read **

    Jim clement who has studied for l0 yrs the etiology of fibro and some CFS sold me some time ago 2 FIR heaters that produce a low heat infra red sauna type effect, his emphasis is on increadsing ATP generation he uses Sweet dairy whey for low sodium and as precursor to gluatthionie vs the immocals’s etc. used by my dr. read on his theory is that our sick bodies without ATP production are probably not breakign down the HI protein undenatured milk whey protein, I KNOW lately for the last 3 months when I take Whey protein isolates my upper arms hurt real bad, CHENEY told me I wasn’t breaking down protein

    Jim cites CHENey’s summary of gluthathiane deficinency in CFS paul cheney , M.D., Ph.D.

    Mitochochondrial dysfunction, reducing ATP generation, is linked to glutathione deficiency by the Gibbs free energy equation. [The energy produced by metabolism of glucose is contained in the chemical bonds of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), which transfers it to where it can be used.] The Gibbs free energy equation says that the energy available to do work in the cell is equivalent to the glutathione concentration. [Glutathione is a peptide composed of three amino acids, cysteine, glutamate, and glycine. Like proteins, peptides are composed of amino acids, but peptides are smaller than proteins. In addition to its role in energy production, glutathione is the most abundant and most important anti-oxidant produced by the body and is a powerful detoxifier.] If there's a reduced energy available to do work, there will always be an equivalent reduction in glutathione.
    (Note: The text between the square brackets [ ] was not part of the oral presentation given by Dr. Cheney. I assume that it was added by the transcriber for clarification purposes. I disagree with the transcriber's comment that glutathione has a role in energy production.)

    My interpretation of the above is that glutathione production is either directly or indirectly affected by the production of ATP.

    This is validated by the information on Glutathione - Synthesis at the "Virtual Free Radical School. The outline in this presentation describes, step-by-step, the processes involved in building glutathione. The two enzymes involved are both ATP-dependent. Therefore, a reduction in ATP could have a direct negative affect on the production of glutathione.

    Since Dr. Cheney makes reference to the Gibbs free energy equation, which is affected by temperature, it may also be that a lower body temperature, due to reduced ATP production, may reduce the enzyme activation rate, reducing glutathione production.

    I was confused when Dr. Cheney suggested taking "isolated whey protein" products such as ImmuPlus to increase the production of glutathione. The presented information suggests that if ATP is increased then glutathione production would increase. Isolated whey proteins, from what I have found, do not influence production of ATP any more than other foods that a person may eat. The whey protein products are good sources for the amino acids that are necessary to build glutathione, but it was not brought out in the presentation that deficiencies of these particular amino acids were contributing factors for the low glutathione levels.

    Sweet dairy whey provides these same proteins, only at a lower concentration.

    In a biochemistry textbook we find the following:

    The reduced form of glutathione, a tripeptide with a free sulfhydryl group, serves as a sulfhydryl buffer that maintains the cysteine residues of hemoglobin and other red-cell proteins in the reduced state. The ratio of the reduced form of glutathione (GSH) to the oxidized form (GSSG) is normally about 500. The reduced form also plays a role in detoxification by reacting with hydrogen peroxide and organic peroxides.

    Reduced glutathione appears to be essential for maintaining normal red-cell structure and for keeping hemoglobin in the ferrous state. Cells with a lowered level of reduced glutathione are more susceptible to hemolysis for reasons that are not yet understood.
    "Biochemistry, 2nd edition" by Lubert Stryer, pg 344.

    I wonder if this increased susceptibility to hemolysis, due to low glutathione levels, may be partly responsible for the low red blood cell mass in CFS/FMS that Drs. Bell and Streeten report.

  2. sumbuni

    sumbuni New Member

    Go easy on the cleansing. I read an article just today about "cleansing". If you suffer from anything that causes sever fatigue (like cfs) you can put yourself in bed be being too zealous with the cleanses!! Personally, I don't need anything that adds to my "too pooped to pop"-itis!

    Take care and God Bless!

  3. PaulMark

    PaulMark New Member

    hmtv: good advise no i can't go see her too far she's in canada i'm bedridden in hick town ky.

    cheney has had me on immunocal etc for yrs. now i force it down when can cause my stomach hurts from inflammation and binging my fault yes, in a way and i'm not making excuses but even he says in his dictation of last visit i feel boxed in cause everythign i try eat or do is a catch 22, i'm one of his sicker patients i'm l26 lbs at 6 l 42 lbs underwght my cycle is like this the dyeshtias as he calls them drives me to the point i can hardly take it sandpaper dry dry thirst fire ants burning biting tingling rasply in mouth tongue throat bronchials, flue like can't digest nothing,

    i'll go 2 days just juicing cause my sotmach is so sore from leaky gut binging etc. believe me i pray for strength and more will and i've a strong one or i'd be dead by now, but cheneys says i'm suffering so nutritionally from the pain bedridden time and poor digestion leaky gut etc.

    when i lst got sick i wetn for acun. treat. i was able to drive to nashville then 2 hrs. away she was good but couldn't help a lot kept saying liver stagnation, kidney problems too yen fire well probably 75 % of us would be dx like that a really good chinese dr. could probably help me but the dr. NI profiled in CFDIS chronicles is in CA and i'm broke sick and in KY

    so i guess GOD has the answers but sometimes GOD is silent and sometimes i think we are so sick we can't see and hear as tom oates said on his recovery tapes the peace that heals i talked to tom some time ago and he was sick for 5 yrs. but by own admission had no pain wow what a blessing although he was very sick at lst and then bedridden but with no Pain that makes it more condusive for healing don't you thinks

    anyways, good advise i need to somehow heal the gut but can't figure out how to

    I said to several d'adamo eat right says in one reply to a lady if she were in switzerland would already be on supervised fast but that is on thing ice here in USA

    boy if we just had the bucks to try the things we think might help at least get the ball rolling

    God bless thansk Paul m
  4. PaulMark

    PaulMark New Member

    hi linda thanks: i'm so so sorry you are having rough time too i am. I have taken mastic gum from allergy research for h pylori haven't been retested so don't know if it helps, the GI drs. didn't seem too worried about it, and iwas allergic to most of the ABX they use so they said treatment would be worse than disease,

    I may need to take it 3 months vs. 6 wks. like the tech people there recommend hard to FIT everything in cause I take that nature biotics with soil organism that dale howard on this board was recommending, but must take 3 hrs. apart and i'm not up much

    also supposed to work up to N. biotics 6 per day over 6 wks. I"ve never been able to get past 3 cause you are supposed to eat a little and i'm so bedridden for 5 yrs. i've not bee nable to eat more than twice, that's why i binge i get up so hungry at l26 lbs. 42 lbs. underwght i eat everything especiallky bananas and nut sesame tahini i crave and of coruse on worst case scenario ice cream a no no i know,

    i do some juicing , i've personally e mailed tansy about some questions, dale howard said not to take flax oil unless with cottage cheese not absorbed she sent article to support,
    colustrum, the tranfer factor people (4 life brand i take) doesn't do much good at main. of 2 per day, say you can devloped more allergies to colustrum cause of dairy content,

    the CYTolog pat palmer talks of was good for body pain energy but you spray in mouth and it exascerbatd the fire ants sandpaper dry dry burnign biting thirst etc. symptom that has driven me mad, joe bently the ceo of lifestar said it was probably the acidity of cyto at 4.4. that was botering me,

    so IF you ever feel LIKE finding the herbs info I"ll check into it PLease

    or please e mail me at paulstory@iolky.com
    i would like to exchange some notes wtih you/tansy on diet and gut healing,

    OH also dale howard said the glutamine I have well wisdom brand Glutimmune says l-3 scoopes l scoop 5 grams, l tsp. l.75 grams . DAle said no way in my health i could work up to 500 mg. per day (it' powder ) she said I'd have to start with only l/4 tsp. SO she recommended 500 mg cap of twin labs l glutamine, with l 50 mg. B 6 and l00 mg. vit c to make amino acids and heal gut "we don't talk anymore for reasons i'll not go into on this board i think she was banned though for tyring to PUSH nature biotics too hard

    write soon if able and God be with you Paul mark

  5. todayisagift

    todayisagift New Member

    Xiao Chai Hu Tang is so the liver and spleen work in harmony which in Chinese terms is the root of all FM problems. I take it 2 times a day. You can work up to 3 or 4 but I think it's too much with everything else I take.
  6. tansy

    tansy New Member

    in order for it to heal your GI tract you have to use the powder form. I'm still on relatively low doses and slowly building them up.

    The colustrum I use is supposed to be better for those with milk allergies, but of course may still be a problem for you.

    Just wish I knew of a quick and easy answer to get you up a level, sure the answers there somewhere, so keep asking because someone here might just have a suggestion that works.

    This board and all the generously helpful and supportive members here have enabled me to move forward, just keep getting the feeling we're missing something in your case.


  7. PaulMark

    PaulMark New Member

    Dear megan and tansy: thank you , but i NEED to lst get my stomach so i can half way eat, i'm now l25 lbs. 43 lbs. underwght and bedirdden etc

    my stomach has been inflammed so long yes part my fault part the vicious cycle of CFIDS which is my dx i devleoped the fibro pain in last 2 yrs.

    questions: will you tansy please tell me or e mail where to get the colustrum you take ??

    megan: can you tell me lst where to get the herbs?
    2. will they help my stomach problems?
    3. can they be taken wtih colustrum and L-glutatmine

    please reply here or e mail at
    paulstory@iolky.com God bless and thanks so much for your replies. PM
  8. Eve612

    Eve612 New Member

    My alternative Dr. had recommended that I do a liver flush, as he felt it is most likely sluggish...there must be another way than drinking that vile mixture & being so sick that you throw up. I feel bad enough without that. If anyone knows of any way to "cleanse" your liver more gently & without the sickness, please let me know!

  9. Solstice

    Solstice New Member


    I do not have digestive problems to the extent that you do. But they can get very bad at times, with similar things you are saying. I am just getting over a very bad stretch with it. I started juicing also, as you mentioned you do. I am just wondering if you tried the kind of juice I found to be extremely helpful. I bought a juice book, by Walker, which lists recipes for specific ailments. The BEST one for digestive problems is Carrott.......10 oz. mixed with spinach.....6 oz. At least once a day, twice would be better.

    Besides the juice, I drink a half cup of aloe juice morning and night. It is very healing to the whole digestive trac. I am also taking a probiotic. And digestive enzymes. I don't know if this will help you, but it may. I hope you get some relief somehow. Don't give up!!!!

    Now I have a question for HMTV..............How much milk thistle in what form, how often. Tea?

    And Hmtv, I would like your opinion about a cleanse that i am about to do. I have ordered all the supplies to start it, and now I'm not so sure I should be doing it. It is by Richard Schultz. Calls himself the Herb Doc. He has a book out called the Incurables Program. The cleanse is 30 days using juices, herbs and tinctures. The goal is to cleanse every organ of the body systematically. I have a friend who cured himself of esophegal (sp?) cancer with this program and then going to raw foods which he has remained on for two years now. The tumor literally disappeared. But this cleanse seems very intense. It incorporates hydrotherapy, the "cold Sheet Treatment" which starts with a bath with specific herbs meant to induce a fever, then followed by iced sheets and the gunk just pores out of your skin onto the sheets.

    I have CFIDS, FMS, bad digestive problems, and I think adrenals that are low functioning. Very weak at times.
    Among all the other various things that go along with these DD's

    I have lined up a lymphatic massage person, colonics before during and after the cleanse, meditation, yoga, organic produce resources............I'm really all set to do this cleanse. But lately, even before reading this post, I am having second thoughts. I just wonder if I can take it. If it would be too rough on my gut, or if my adrenals could take it. Oh, yes, I have had my gall bladder removed, but still have all the pain in my right side that I always had before.......my liver???

    I do not have a doc who is working with me to guide me during this fast, which is one reason I think I should probably wait..........until I find one that can help me with it. What do you think??????

    Anyway, I feel for you Paul with all you are dealing with. It sounds like the Chinese Herbs that helped one other woman here might be a good route to take. I sincerely hope you can get some relief.
    Peace to you,

  10. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune New Member

    You are way ahead of me in approaches to help leaky gut, liver, etc. Only once in my life did I lose weight involuntarily by means of constant diarrhea. For over month of constant diarrhea to the point anytime I put anything in my mouth, I had to be sure I was home, near the bathroom. And then sometimes it would happen when I had not eaten or drank a thing. Colonoscopy revealed --get this-- irritated inflamed mucosa. Ha! After the colonoscopy had a visit with my allergist's staff. They questioned me extensively about changes I had made dietary-wise. (Or was I cheating on my usual wheat/yeast/soy -free eating) Initially I could not remember anything, but then said, well, I was drinking SoBee products. They are yummy, very thirst quenching. They asked me to eliminate citrus from my diet. BINGO. End of diarrhea.

    As I said you are way ahead of me in understanding the ins and outs of the regimens you are trying. I am trying to learn. But if you have an intolerance to some of the ingredients you are trying, it may be counterproductive. If you cleanse your organs, you may be able to tolerate a product without much trouble. But if you are using it to produce a cleansing, it might be making matters worse.

    Before I eliminated my "allergens" from my diet I could barely get out of bed. (It is not just a particular food product, but also preparation or storage of product.) Figuring it out on your own is tough.

    Believe it or not, this post was initiated to say, I cannot help you but wanted you to know how much empathy I feel for you. I will pray you find some answers. As I typed the rest seemed to just appear. Oh well! Good luck Paul. Fondly,June

  11. Eve612

    Eve612 New Member

    How much Milk Thistle should one take? Are there any side effects?

  12. PaulMark

    PaulMark New Member

    ON the Schultz cleanse from PM: I get his stuff in the mail and it really sounds good. I get all fired up but, at my wght. and I"ve read dont' undertake an unsupervised fast over 5 day i worry if i could stand. Also i wonder if it would work with CFIDS he cliams any illness he might be rigth, but i've read the imbaalances of CFIDS are not same as other illnesses including cancer.

    D - Adamo eat rigth says fasting is on thin ground i nthe US i don't know

    thirdly do you have to take medication, i have been so brainwashed by all the N.D.'s i've e mialed read about or talked to and altenrative people that ALL MEDS are toxic and as long as you take them you can't cleanse the body,

    THIS is a huge controversial subject on this board and I stay TORN up about it frankly, I Hate taking meds. but i've tried nixing my small doses neurontin klonipin doxepin (very littel there) and only l/3 dose of an antidepressant which does help my mood,

    Klutzo is very knowleadable on this controversy as she has been on BOTH side of fence having studied N D for 2.5 yrs.

    The Shcult cleanse I thinnk would WORK if a person is l. strong enough to do it... 2. had a dr. who knew about fasting 3o days is a long time, i'm l25 lbs. and when i fast involuntarily cause of stomach problmes (veg. jucing
    only) i end up binging,

    So sounds like if you aree strong enough have a dr. to supervise it, have all htose others lined up might be worth a shot let us know we care

    NOW i'm torn between tring dr. cheney's telling me to take l reg. strenght tylenol 3 times wk. with l50 M. thistle NOT to cleanse the liver but to increase glutathtiaine

    I'm sure he knows what he's talking about SO do i take whey protein which hurts my stomach at this point or risk another medication although l tylenol is a very low dose with milk thistel on m. W and F for glutathtiane?

    I don't know the answers,

    IF your wght is up and yo uare strong enough i would try the 30 day fast but I would want someone with training to supervise that's the problme here accordign to d adamo the ND who wrote hte eat right book not many really know how to supervise a long fast,

    DO YOU HAVE tTO take MEDS?? at ALL, If i'm correct schultz is like the rest of the hardline N.D.'s bruce fife and others who are totally ANTI med

    frankly at heart i am too, but like i said i've not been able to NIX my meds i' only take 400 mg. neurontin, vs. the low recommended dose of 600-900 mg. cause of this belief

    BUT sometimes i wonder if you can't sleep w/o meds or take the pain, is the stress more harm than the meds

    i don't know the answer,

    THe problme i see with schultz stuff on the hydrotherpay and cold sheets, is this, I know withtheh HPA suppression (ie hypathlmus) i cna't stand hot or cold I can hardly take a shower,

    so if you don't have that problme ie sensory distorttion casued by the hypathlmus adrenal pit. axis problmes in CFIDS this might not be a problme,

    I"d asked Klutzo about his regimen she is very very knowledagble as i said on both side of conventional and non conventional

    just laying out soem thoughts for you Paul M
  13. Solstice

    Solstice New Member

    I appreciate your feedback, also Htmv.........thanks for your feedback about the fast.

    I think I am going to wait to get a doc that can supervise me on this. And wait to get some testing done. I am scheduled for a colonoscopy and another scope from the top. And I want to have the ASI , adrenal stresss index done first. Then I think I will do the cleanse.


    Do you have a regualr doctor??? Is it a ND? Or a traditional doc? Can you afford to go to a ND? Do you have insurance?
    I feel strongly that you need to get with a doctor who can help you through this. Sounds like you are trying to figure this out all on your own and it would help to have the medical guidance. Sometimes going to the specialists is not enough........they do one thing and ignore the rest. So, can you find someone who will work with you in a holistic way to figure this out???

    Hang in there, don't give up till you find answers.

  14. klutzo

    klutzo New Member

    While I have the utmost respect and admiration for TCM practitioners, Chinese herbs that were actually GROWN in China can cause more problems than they solve for many delicate Western stomachs. They use animal and human excrement as fertilizer over there (the same goes for India), and our spoiled American digestive and immune systems are no match for this. So, be carfeul and try to get the proper Chinese formulations, but grown here, and to our hygenic standards.
    PM - see your other post for my vitriolic commentary on the infamous Dr. Schulz.

    Geez - I think I have spelling dyslexia...I keep having to edit spelling mistakes.
    [This Message was Edited on 09/01/2003]
    [This Message was Edited on 09/01/2003]
  15. sandy10seven

    sandy10seven New Member


    I'm so very sorry you are still having so many problems. You just mentioned that you have pain on your right side. I have liver pain on my right side, above the bottom of my rib cage and just below the breast. (I've had my gall bladder removed.)

    I know it's liver pain because I had hepatitis years ago and that's when it first started. Normally it doesn't hurt. If I inhale something toxic, like bleach or a strong cleaner, it will hurt immediately. Sometimes, a new medication will cause the pain, usually after a few days. If this happens with a med, I stop taking it and the pain goes away.

    I try not to eat greasy or fried food, as it is hard for the liver to process. Milk thistle is a good, safe cleanser. I take it from time to time.

    I have the liver enzyme test done occasionally and it's always been in the normal range, thankfully. If you think you might have liver pain, you should talk to your doctor about it and probably have an enzyme test.

    With your stomach problems, I think a strong cleanse might be too much for you right now. I've known several people who told me that aloe vera helped their stomach problems. I wish I could be of more help, but I hope some of this info will be useful.

    Best wishes, Sandy

    [This Message was Edited on 09/01/2003]
  16. PaulMark

    PaulMark New Member

    DEAR soltice: YES i've heard of walker's book i already have 2 juicing books, i'm cuaght up in anohter dilema which is worse, avoiding all tested for IGG (yes my dr. is CHENey) uses ALLCAT test supposed to be on rotation diet but then i binge i get so hungry bedridden pain CFIDS cycle

    some Nd's say watch out for all allergens others like d adamo eat right type says more to fear from lectins than food allergies, which are mostly from our dig. problmes true

    so what is worse trying to juice broccoli YUK on the day i can only eat from the mustard (brocc.) family or

    using carrots which were a 2+ reactive food on the igg test supposedly avoid for 4-6 months which i didn't avoid altogehter most juice recipes call for carrots,

    another catch 22 more benefit from thenutrition or more benefit from total avoidance

    i was workign with l ND over e mail and phone i wouldnt advise that by the way

    and he said changes from developing more food allergen to a food from juicing is miminmal due to they are already pre digested BUT my thinking is you are consuming much more of that allergen food by juicing right?

    on the other hand the digestive problems leaky gut candida etc are causing 90% of food allergies

    SO do you have many food allergies? do you avoid all foods to juice that you have immeidate or IGG is delayed onset or masked allergies the test i had thru AMTL corp.

    and they aren't full proof for ex. it says cocunut milk is a l+ reactive food meanign minimal reactvity and they incorporate it into the 4 day plan if you have many food intolerance,

    BUT i crave pure cocunut milk but it makes me sicker as heck makes my throat break out and i canno't digest it

    must be the FAT init i crave so go figure i am so confused i have no clue, and beat myself up for taking low dose neurotin 400 mg (very low) l mg klonpin at bed 2 drops doxepin, and only l/3 dose of novel european antidepressant med, and i read all that ND holistic stuff that is ideal if an ideal world and i think i will never get better if i dont' nix all MEDS i guess the stress of allthis is worse thanthe meds themselves,

    YOU Might want to ask Klutzo about schultz, she knows a littel about him, i get his stuff in mailand it does look good but i know one thing i couldn't stand hot and could with my sensory distortation so bad i can hardly take a shower,

    I tried a lot of altnerative stuff when lst sick prior to cfids dx by cheney and no one could address the top sandpaper dry dry thrist fire ants burning biting tingling raspy mouth tongue throat bronchials, and intermittend dry non productive cough, not acunpun. not coloincs not hydrogen pyrodixde i'vs so maybe cheney is right mabye it is part sensory OH yes he says an organic cause but might take l,000 of bucks and yrs. to find it and i've been sick goign on 6 yrs. now and wosre than ever,

    the ND route yest if i could find the right one they seem to be either black and white NO meds period and i've treid no meds and i can't take any pain that is worse and i can't sleep and we must sleep, or we will never heal

    Do you have to take meds if not you are lucky, some of us aren't so lucky,

    ANways' God bless and feel free to e mail please