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I'm not feeling very patriotic...

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Charlie Rose did an excellent interview with Ted Koppel this past week. They start out discussing the long history of U.S. oil politics, and then go into detail how the emergence of China and its oil needs has brought us to a whole new paradigm.

I would give this 5 stars. Ted Koppel tells it like it is (in a totally unpartisan way). I find him refreshing and unlike so many other journalists who either don't know what's going on, or shrink from the dreaded "oil" word, instead referring to "vital strategic interests".

<a href="http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2008/07/09/1/a-conversation-with-ted-koppel">Charlie Rose Interview with Ted Koppell</a>

I decided to post this because of an earlier discussion on this thread about oil politics. I think clear distinctions should be made between true patriotism, and doing what some political leaders feel is necessary militarily to watch out for our oil interests.

Regards, Wayne
[This Message was Edited on 07/12/2008]


New Member
We are no longer dependent on the parochial views of local news and can now access news outlets from all over the world. My jumping off point is often Canadian newspapers or TV news from CBC, BBCW or CNN but I follow up on items that interest me by reading reports online from sources much closer to the action.

My Homepage contains news providers from around the globe. When I encounter a story on an event that happened in a far flung corner of the world, I can almost always access English language news outlets from the country involved. I have bookmarked newspapers from all over the world for easy reference.

Personally, I do not confine myself to the outlets which are likely to think and react as I do since I am eager to know how those who differ are reacting to the event.

TV news is becoming less relevant to me except in the case of breaking news which relies heavily on video coverage.





For the Chinese cars. I cannot even imagine taking a chance on buying one. If the quality is like some of the other products, they may not be safe and if they need repairs, I wonder whether parts will be available. I remember when Japanese cars were first sold here. There was great difficulty getting parts. In a few years, will Chinese cars be the number one seller?

Love, Mikie



New Member
.RE: "ANY TAKERS to listen to something different?" ....as someone who has travelled the world I really do have an open mind, and have heard and seen a lot first hand, and have a son who is currently in harm's way. However, I really do not want to get into partisan discussions on the board here. We have to not let our thoughts on these issues divide us. I have listened from time to time, to some of the broadcasts suggested and find them pretty hateful and extremely partisan personally. Just not on my listening level. I am rather academic.

I have and do listen to all points of view, when these are presented in a professional manner, and as a person who has conducted lots of lectures at post grad level, I would say I have been exposed to many different points of view from some great young thinkers. I have an extensive library and beleive I am fairly smart. I also have had the priviedge of rubbing shoulders with more than a couple of Nobel Prize Winners in our immediate circle, so I guess I have had a lot of exposure to knowledge.

I also have close friends who have opposite opinions from me, who are not in the academic world, have different political and religious views, are a different sex, age or color, but our friendship is based on true worth and the same strong morals rather than anything as petty as political rhetoric. Neither they, nor I want to be brainwashed by unsubstantiated hollering.

Personally I don't care to listen to any broadcaster, R, L or whatever, who is not listening to a wide range of opinions, is not really smart and well trained, puts others down,who is not telling the truth, but spouting off, I need a broadcaster who is being factual as far as they are able, and not brainwashing others to put down anyone who may be marching to a different drummer, as they themselves do. A closed minded person often has a dangerous mouth.

Some of the folk mentioned here on this thread, Charlie Rose, Ted Koppel, the BBC, the late Tim Russert and a few others are the ones who are telling it as it is, and also they are smart, informed people who are doing what journalists should be doing, getting the facts to the people. As Mikie/Jamin? says, we cannot rely on just a snip of the story to get the whole facts, things have to be in context and taken with the full meaning. I read today in the AARP a quote from Lee Iococa that rang true:went something like this: "It is not who is is power, who will be president, but who the circle of people around that person will be that is important." How true!

I hate the curent trends of "reality shows", (what is real about being meanspirited?) truth telling shows, people acting out publicly, that are designed to humiliate and harm, and so called journalists yelling at the camera or mike and twisting a story to their own extreme partisan bias. Trial by media is not on my agenda. I think the TV programs with few exceptions are degrading and disgusting and feeding a terrible attitude. Just have a listen to the BBC World news and see how calmly it is presented, how calmly too, people like Charlie Rose present their program, ditto for McNeil news program. I am not listening when someone is yelling and wagging fingers. Whatever happened to decency and mild manners? Went out with the Laurence Welk show it seems in large part.

Loving the earth, its animals and plants, my fellow human beings, embracing all colors,ages, creeds and cultures is, in my humble opinion, what we are here for. We should avoid killing anything at all costs, especially humans. I personally don't care about opinions so long as people follow the Golden Rule and do as we would be done by. I do care about facts and try and form my own thoughts by listening with an open heart and mind. I will also continue to speak out against injustice no matter where I see it and by whom it is being metered out. Like many others here, I am prepared to die for defence of my country and this lovely land I now live in, but not in a foolhardy fashion.

I love the support people give to one another here, as I know for some, it is the only place they can get it. This is really what being an American or world citizen is all about, loving and supporting one's fellow humankind.

Blessings and Peace,

Definately has to be last post here!!!for me,

[This Message was Edited on 07/12/2008]
[This Message was Edited on 07/12/2008]


New Member
Why are you directing this to only me? Seems a lot of others who have posted have been pretty strident about their opinions. I was merely trying to suggest that those who are seemingly afraid to hear the other side to be more open minded. It is abundantly clear to me that is not the case. Last post here for me too!


New Member
...because you asked if anyone was actually going to "take you up on your offer" is all. Not specific otherwise. Sorry if you did not want me to answer your specific post, it sounded as if you were throwing out an invitation. I only replied as you had asked for answers to your own question, no one else had asked that. I hope all the others read it, as is my intention, it clearly was for all. I think I mentioned Mikie there too BTW. I only said your name as it is easier for you to click and read an answer to a specific question you asked. No offense intended at all. I will remove your name now you have read it.


Hi Annie,

I don't know if you'll be seeing this, but I just wanted to let you know how much I've appreciated your posts here on this thread. I love the "tone" of your writing. Very thoughtful and respectful. I especially liked the longer one you posted this afternoon.

Many Thanks, Wayne


Well-Known Member
posters here are so civilized and nice and put forward their points in a mature manner

Gingaree however comes across as an extremely angry petulant child in his/her posts...theyre brash and and very confrontational - "I dare you to" kind of posts....its already obvious some viewpoints are so radically opposite to each other, and no amount of explaining is going to change either side.

But i did think the board should remain vitriol free. Like it has been till now. I dont know if Im doing the right thing saying this but ive been wanting to say it out for some time since reading through the posts.

I dont feel anyone is under any obligation to feel PATRIOTIC on the Fourth of July...or proud to be American...I dont think painterz is saying she HATES America, she's just sad and sick of the way things are right now and believes its because of what the leadership did to contribute to the state of affairs. Whats wrong with thinking that out loud? Isnt democracy about free speech?

God Bless

[This Message was Edited on 07/12/2008]


If it becomes too confrontational. Most here are very kind and respectful to others and their opinions. Let's please keep it that way. I consider it a blessing to be able to discuss these topics with my fellow board members. It is wonderful to be able to read others' opinions about world events.

Thanks for keeping this civil so we can continue our discussion and have other discussions in the future.

Love, Mikie


I drove American cars for most of my life with the exception of a few VW Beetles. We have four new American cars in the 70's and 80's which were complete lemons. We switched to German cars and were happy. My last VW was made in Mexico and wasn't nearly the car my others were. On top of that, every time I took it to the local dealer, there was some suspicious "repair" which needed to be done. As I listened in the waiting room, I realized that others had the same "repairs" which were beind done.

After Mom died, I ended up with two VW's and didn't need two cars. The local Toyota dealership is one of the top in the U.S. and my neighbors raved about it. My one daughter has had a 4-Runner for about 13 or 14 years and it has more than 150,000 miles on it without major repairs. So, I decided to get a Toyota Highlander. It's now six years old (I can't believe it already). Of course, I don't put much mileage on a car but I have really loved this one. Heck, at this rate, I may never have to buy another :)

Thing is that all the big three U.S. automakers have merged with foreign automakers and even if one "buys American," there is no guarantee that parts of the car, or the whole car, aren't made somewhere else. Toyota and Honda have U.S. plants where they produce cars, and jobs, for Americans. It truly is a global market now.

Love, Mikie


New Member
Thanks for saying it so well. I too, love fair excahnge but not bickering.

I will be off here as my 14 year old has his surgical procedures tomorrow morning and we are staying o'night at R McDonald house at least one night, we will see how it goes.

You know just having RMc house there is wonderful and relects what is super about the USA that all this volunteer effort goes into having a place where we could stay. When Danny was in hospital for 9 days,the other week, my DH could visit and stay over there. We were surprised that many companies have a volunteer rosta for preparing an evening meal too, that food was available. It reminds me that I have been very critical of McD's, but here I am taking advantage of their "house".

If you get the AARP newsheet that Lee Iococa article is very good.

I too, have enjoyed this thread a lot. It takes us away from our DD and for the worry for me about my son's illness. I love to hear other people's impressions and ideas as well and there have been so many smart, intelligent comments. Thanks for the kind words too. I would hate to see this thread stopped (as they have never been allowed before) so we must all be careful to obey the rules of polite discussion. I have learned a lot here already, so I hope Pro Health bear with us, and allow us all to learn a little from this discussion.

Peace and blessings to everyone.

Love Annie



New Member
All I have ever attempted to do is inject a different persepctive into this discussion. How is my challanging all of you to @ least listen to a differing opinion confontational, when I was willing(still am) to do the same? Since all of you passed on my offer,I have to assume none of you wants to be out of your comfort zone.I have even acknowledged the posts that I felt made a good case(Micki, Wayne). I'm also not angry(that would be Jaminhealth,she said so herself!) My posts may have been provocative and sometimes tongue firmly planted in my cheek, but nothing more than that! Having said that this really is my last response to this thread. I will now be a silent observer. God bless America!


New Member
Well has'nt this post turned into a interesting dicussion?

It seems that everyone is well informed and has some knowledge of every side of the debate. We have ample opportunity to hear all of the big names in broadcasting on any side of any questian.

I look at information this way: yin and yang, a little bit of a lie in the truth and a little truth in the lie. So we have to do the best we can to sort it out.

A personal case in point: I do not approve of children attending armed forces cadet training, for obvious reasons.

But, near where I live is a large native, indian reserve, {another inhjustice?} Anyway, the population of children is over 50%. This is oil rich land and every man, woman and child receives a nice yearly royalty cheque.

A great portion of these monies are spent on drugs and alchohol. The children run wild and gangs with all types of crime are a major problem!

Here is where the forces step in and establish a cadet core.

1,000 children belong and have responded well to the discipline and order they receive. School attendance is up, grades are improved and gang numbers are going down.

So the questian is,is military training a good thing for young people or not?

Most of lifes questians are like this,yin and yang.

God bless us all! Love Denamay


Prayers going up for you and your son. McDonald's has always had a special place in my heart. They are very generous with helping kids. I was a fund developer for a dental clinic for indigent children. McDonald's gave us a nice grant for our work. I am happy you can stay there. Please let us know how your son is doing.

Love, Mikie
I just want to say I'm really enjoying this thread. I appreciate reading everyone's viewpoints. I've been taping and watching Ted Koppel in China and it's been quite a learning experience. It helps me to see first hand what's really going on and I like how he doesn't shy away from the bad issues yet presents the positives too and he's willing to ask the tough questions and expose the corruption. The bottom line seems to be that money talks and if you have it you're untouchable no matter what country you live in or where you're from.

As I study history, US history and world history, I'm coming to realize that these problems we have now have always occurred and will probably continue to occur. The anomaly is actually our middle class way of life in America and Europe. That's not normal for any other culture or other time in history. We were privileged to get to live it while it lasted.
Just remembered a magazine I haven't seen for years, but assume still out there.
It was composed of statements and essays from around the world, often by world leaders, and the words were not edited.

Translations were complete and literal.

It was nice to get complete "real" insights and points of views.

Turns out that a lot of world leaders aren't just simplistic demagogues as portrayed on TV, etc., but have genuine insights and knowledge when read in full context.

I'm not home to get BBC, but am suspicous because it is titled "American BBC":)

Anyway, I don't listen to a lot of programs because of work hours, but do try to listen to a full variety of news stations.....if only to have a few bitter laughs and to see who is leaving what out. Bill

BTW, I'm surprised that terrorists haven't targeted taking over news stations. As near as I can tell, most of local broadcast stations are deserted and on automatic at night time. I was in one city when a very strong earthquake hit. It was 45 minutes of no news before a "live" person started to broadcast.

Sorry to go on, but just remembered the dictator of Libya whom "everyone" concedes is rather a madman....even he has some "reality" at times. He certainly straightened up and became a team player after the USA sent missiles into his palace to kill him but killed one of his nephews.
His agents were behind the Lockerbe plane bombing. (unfortunately, some nice people were killed, like the young director of the San Francisco Exploratorium museum.)
Odd, but I can't remember which USA president sent the missiles. Wonder why USA didn't invade Libya.

Oh, I always find amusing that in World War II, both armies were desperate for refined gasoline and didn't realize that that were on top of huge oil fields in Libya.

Oh,well, enough. thanks

[This Message was Edited on 07/15/2008]
[This Message was Edited on 07/15/2008]


New Member
Just a couple of comments. Danny is home and sleeping, he did OK but again they had messed up the apps. and procedures required. Alls well that ends well. It DID rule out this as possible dx.

Re Power: I think "Power Corrupts" is probably an expression that says it all. It seems too, often!

Re: Informed decisions.

Trash in trash out

There is no way I will listen or read trash as an "alternative viewpoint" it would be like comparing say, Charlie Rose as one viewpoint and Jerry Springer as another. I think that unfortunately "mainstream" is often sensationalistic rather than informative. It is like asking me to read "Harlequin Romance" instead of Steinbeck.

There are lots of conservative writers and broadcasters who are intelligent we can read and listen to: William Buckley (late) was a lively debater who had a good brain. Several others too. But Mikie when you said people will always seek out what they desire to support their already biased point of view this is correct.

This is why these slash and burn reporters and talk show people are able to capitalize - by causing a feeding frenzy. At this stage they already know people have stopped listening to anything but constant reinforcement of a narrow belief the listener feels comfortable with. This promotes anger and the inability to actually discuss anything fairly.

I just read a funny(but true) comment in an old RD: "My clothes are so old the were all made in America"

I was curious so look up the definition of patriotic: loving, supporting and defending one's country

this is not to be confused in loving and defending the mouthpieces of special interest lobby groups and defending their greed and desires. Unfortunately Washington is dominated by such groups which has eroded any sense of representation by any party. I was particularly saddened yesterday to see the news broadcast feeding upon the high oil prices to allow the big oil people to get at our pristine wilderness areas and off shore oceans.(they have been after this for years. The inferences were so beyond the truth, I can only suspect that this whole oil price increase has been engineered to gain popular support for obtaining drilling rights.

The real issues should be addressing the billions of dollars of profit with little to no new refineries or investments by a bunch of meglomaniacs. Which brings me about circle to "Power Corrupts". As a patriot, I have to defend this country and my own against such corruption, no matter how high up it occurs, otherwise, I do not love my country enough. So PainterZ back to your original point, I think you are extremely patriotic because you question this, and opened up this discussion to tap us all on the shoulder to wake up. Thanks.

Have a wonderful day full of excahnged kindnesses.

Love Annie
that the deficits and debts would be paid by our great grandchildren. Not us!!

It's not fair. We listened to our leaders, even voted for them, paid for their health care, why would they do this:.....make us pay for our own debts? And why didn't I see some of the good times money?

Somehow, seems that if oil in Alaska is so valuable now, then it would be even more valuable to our grandchildren. Maybe we should save some for them? Common courtesy, and all.

Oh,well. Sometimes when I watch the business channels, politicians,etc, I feel like I'm on the Titanic and everyone is pointing upward, saying, "Look, the ship is half out of the water".

Would be nice if someone had a thought out energy plan for future, besides "let's drill until it's all gone".

Something. I'm not totally against more oil drilling in USA but would like to know that that there is a plan for when cheaper oil runs out....even if that is 200 years from now.

Like, maybe put solar panels on every roof.....couldn't be that expensive could it?

Maybe we humans will get lucky and discover that oil is a renewable resource because of CO2 seeping up from deep earth. Maybe we will find out why our prayers aren't answered the way we expect?

Oh,well. Really is sad, I suppose. Cheers, within the limitations of my human personality, lol, mr Bill

[This Message was Edited on 07/16/2008]